URGENT HELP! Driving Charge :(, Being Charged - driving without due care and attention |
URGENT HELP! Driving Charge :(, Being Charged - driving without due care and attention |
Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:02
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,324 |
HI guys
new here but I hope y'all can assist me with a recent letter ive received. I'm being charged for apparently cutting in front of a cyclist at a junction - the video evidence they using to prosecute me is coming directly from the bikers helmet - although they make no complaint to me when the incident happens ( the chap just rides on like nothing happened ) and only gives from 1 point of view - doesn't show the whole incident and if im being honest - I don't see how I can be prosecuted for what they're trying to charge me for. Anyhow, the link below Is the link to the video : https://mps.box.com/s/1a9awv7o451fi4i41hmrruu9elliuz46 the password being " honda ". Would appreciate it if someone could shed some advice on this matter for me so I know whether to dispute it or not. Thanks |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:02
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:06
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
That link is password protected, you need to make it public
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:09
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,723 Joined: 3 Apr 2006 From: North Hampshire Member No.: 5,183 |
Incident at 2 minutes. Would appear to be very poor decision on your part, you totally cut the corner and crossed the junction on the wrong side of the road. I could see you being found guilty at court. If they offer a course you might want to take it.
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:14
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#4
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,324 |
Thanks for looking a this - it doesn't show from any other point of view I had to overtake the cyclist as he pulled out in front of me as I was turning into the road .
As I was turning in he just came straight across my path so I had to go around him or hit a parked car! Surely they need more evidence than this to convict me? Also , on another note - don't they have to notify you within a certain time scale if they want to charge you with a driving offense? Ive been told its 14days if im not mistaken. thanks |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:23
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,723 Joined: 3 Apr 2006 From: North Hampshire Member No.: 5,183 |
I can see your point, this is clearly a fixed cam on the bike and not a helmet cam, it's far too low down. So you can't see what the cyclist could see and why they thought it was OK to cross the road.
You could take it to court but based on your description of events might be asked why you couldn't have braked? |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:23
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
A helmet cam would have shown him looking and your speed/position
There's a get-out for a late NIP if the police aren't able to trace the registered keeper within that time, such as if the incident was reported too late The prosecution will argue that, if you had time to swerve and accelerate, you had time to stop and go behind him This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:26 |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:04
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
From the position of your car at 2.02 I would say that you came from behind him and overtook whilst he was crossing the junction,
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:07
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
A helmet cam would have shown him looking and your speed/position There's a get-out for a late NIP if the police aren't able to trace the registered keeper within that time, such as if the incident was reported too late No there is not. The MET have a strict policy of not accepting any dashcam submission more than 10 days old, for that very reason. The prosecution will argue that, if you had time to swerve and accelerate, you had time to stop and go behind him Quite, on top of that it's a pretty poor piece of driving in any case. With the cyclist to your left, if a bike had been coming out of that road at speed (and not anticipating an oncoming car on the wrong side of the road) you might have faced a binary choice of a head on collision, or hitting the cyclist. I really would not advise going to court and trying to convince the magistrates that the standard of driving shown in the video meets the standard expected of a competent and careful driver, if a course is on offer I'd take it. If not but a fixed penalty is on offer, take that instead. Sorry if this isn't what you were hoping to hear, but these are the cheapest options. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:20
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
No there is not. The MET have a strict policy of not accepting any dashcam submission more than 10 days old, for that very reason.
Thank You That's interesting to know I really would not advise going to court and trying to convince the magistrates that the standard of driving shown in the video meets the standard expected of a competent and careful driver, That's the killer phrase The OP needs to tell us more about the apparently late NIP which looks like his only plausible defence From the age of his car, the usual explanations - lease, hire, company car won't apply Perhaps he's recently bought the car or changed address This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:22 |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:31
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#10
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,324 |
Thanks for all the advice guys - looks like my only option is to prove the notice was served late.
How would I go about confirming when the original letter was sent to me - as the original letter I received asking to confirm who the driver was was sent on around the 14/15th July - if I remember rightly and hence I think it fell after the 14day period they have to notify the driver - am I right in saying so? Appreciate the help. if worst case comes around and I take the course on offer - any idea the cost for one of these? |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:33
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Let's start with the basics, are you the registered keeper? i.e. do you have the V5C for the car, and is it in your name?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:58
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#12
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,324 |
Yes I do - they asked for proof of who the driver was at the time of incident so I replied back with my details and then I was advised they would send through a letter of correspondence about the matter. When the letter came in there was NO explanation of the incident, photos given just a letter saying im being charged with undue care and attention and basically just told me I had to book the course - there was no other option to chase this.
Until I went into the police station myself - they then said would send over the Evidence which is what ive posted above! |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:15
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
Yes I do - they asked for proof of who the driver was at the time of incident so I replied back with my details and then I was advised they would send through a letter of correspondence about the matter. When the letter came in there was NO explanation of the incident, photos given just a letter saying im being charged with undue care and attention and basically just told me I had to book the course - there was no other option to chase this. Until I went into the police station myself - they then said would send over the Evidence which is what ive posted above! So they have offered you a course, and I think you should take it, I agree with what has been said about entering the side road on the wrong side of the road being a piece of driving that fell below the standard of a competent and careful driver. -------------------- |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:23
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Member No.: 6,174 |
My take on it, the driver is on a main road turning right, he will be checking for oncoming traffic and a final shoulder/mirror check prior to turning. A cyclist who is not on the main highway, and as such should give way to vehicles maneuvering on/off said highway crosses the road approaching the driver who is turning right on his left hand side. If I performed this maneuver in a car or on a motorbike I would be the one receiving a NIP, anyone doing it on a test would get a straight fail.
If a car is on the main carriageway and indicating right traffic joining should not pull across in front. Give way to traffic on the main carriageway was always the rule when I took my test, doesn't it apply to cyclists? |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:27
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#15
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,324 |
I think ill have to take the course - im just bemused as to why im the one at blame, I understand I went across the path of a cyclist but to be charged with undue care and attention I think is excesive. Especially as they only have 1 form of evidence - the camera from the cyclist POV - but doesn't show any other angles of the incident, where I came from and especially if there were any obstructions from blocking mine / others paths on the route.
Without this evidence, surely it cant be as clear cut as im the one at fault and have to take the course - surely they would need more evidence of this to prosecute than just one fixed angle video from the bloody cyclist themselves! Just frustrated at this that's ALl Could you not argue the point that the cyclist is cleasrly riding bang in the centre of the road, not keeping to the sides as supposed to do by the highway code? I had to overtake due to not having any of the road to enter when turning into the junction due to the cyclist being rather hogging of the entire middle of the road/lane. |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:34
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
You should have waited then gone behind him
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:57
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
My take on it, the driver is on a main road turning right, he will be checking for oncoming traffic and a final shoulder/mirror check prior to turning. A cyclist who is not on the main highway, and as such should give way to vehicles maneuvering on/off said highway crosses the road approaching the driver who is turning right on his left hand side. If I performed this maneuver in a car or on a motorbike I would be the one receiving a NIP, anyone doing it on a test would get a straight fail. If a car is on the main carriageway and indicating right traffic joining should not pull across in front. Give way to traffic on the main carriageway was always the rule when I took my test, doesn't it apply to cyclists? It just demonstrates why taking things like this to court is risky because I agree absolutely with Dwain. It seems to me the cyclist gave way to the bus and almost gave way to the following grey car (setting off before it had fully passed him) but decided not to wait for you and instead race you to the entrance to the side road. I imagine you were waiting to turn right and set off when the oncoming white car had passed by. It seems he must have set off at the same time as you when in fact he should have waited for you to clear the junction. He then proceeds to hog the white line in the middle of the road he has just entered. I would not be surprised if you didn't see him until the last second as you would not have expected anything to be running up your nearside in those circumstances and would be concentrating on the oncoming traffic in the main road and any traffic emerging from the side road you were entering. The only snag in my hypothesis is that you were clearly on the wrong side of the road that you had just entered. But that's just my take which doesn't particularly matter. If you take this to court and lose (and it seems Dwain or I might be outvoted if either of us was on the Bench) it will cost you a packet and at least three points. A more likely defence is the NIP. What was the date of the incident and what was the date on the NIP? This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 14:01 |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:57
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
The Highway Code doesn't say anything about keeping to the side other than moving out in good time for obstacles such as drain
It's also where all the loose gravel and potholes will be found so it's not a very safe place to ride |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:20
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 9 Oct 2016 Member No.: 87,665 |
Given the timing, I accept the cyclist probably should have waited for a bigger gap, but it's pretty clear you saw them in plenty of time to stop but made the decision to overtake at probably the worst possible moment.
So the problem you have is that the video shows you fairly casually overtaking the cyclist on the wrong side of the road as you enter the side road. It doesn't show someone taking sudden evasive action. There is no emergency stop. You don't even have your brake lights on until you stop to let the van through. I think convincing a court that the cyclist cut you up might be possible, but convincing them that this left you no choice but to drive the way you did will be difficult based on that video alone. |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:26
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
The Highway Code doesn't say anything about keeping to the side other than moving out in good time for obstacles such as drain It's also where all the loose gravel and potholes will be found so it's not a very safe place to ride Rule 160? "Once moving you should keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to overtake, turn right or pass parked vehicles or pedestrians in the road". |
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