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S.172 notice
Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:37
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Hi all.

Received this in post (first class)


I have omitted dates and identifying features for obvious reasons, but the date of the offence is over 14 days ago. This is including the date of offence.

Having read information online, am I right in thinking that they have 14 days in which to issue this?

My address with the DVLA (DVSA?) has remained unchanged for the past 25 years.
I have not recently changed car.
I get all my post to my address from DVLA no problems, mot/tax etc.
There have been no postal/rail strikes in my area and there has been no extreme weather. Unless 20ºC sunshine is classed as extreme now...


Any advice would be appreciated please.

Thanks

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post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:37
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samthecat
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:41
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Are you the registered keeper of the car?

If so check your V5 and make sure your details are recorded correctly.


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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:42
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QUOTE (samthecat @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:41) *
Are you the registered keeper of the car?

If so check your V5 and make sure your details are recorded correctly.



Thanks for the reply.

V5 is in my name and address and has been for many years.


Thanks
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AntonyMMM
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:53
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The 14 day rule applies to Notices of Intended Prosecution (NIP), not a s172 notice. That can be issued anytime and not replying is potentially a separate and much more serious offence.

Others will know better, but I don't think that using a non-conforming registration mark is an offence that requires a NIP in any case.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:53
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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:56
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:53) *
The 14 day rule applies to Notices of Intended Prosecution (NIP), not a s172 notice. That can be issued anytime and not replying is potentially a separate and much more serious offence.

Others will know better, but I don't think that using a non-conforming registration mark is an offence that requires a NIP in any case.


Thanks Antony.

So this is not a speeding ticket?
Thanks

Edit: please forgive my oversight, I did not read it properly in panic.


This is unusual as I have had this registration for over 5 years now and never had any issues...

This post has been edited by Alex190048: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:16
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AntonyMMM
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:15
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QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:56) *
So this is not a speeding ticket?


Have you read it ?

It would suggest that your number plate is not legal in some way perhaps ?
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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:26
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:56) *
So this is not a speeding ticket?


Have you read it ?

It would suggest that your number plate is not legal in some way perhaps ?


My apologies.

I am at a loss as to why. I did get a new registration plate off the wife for my 60th, 5 years ago but she got this through a reputable company and I informed the DVLA. This is the registration plate on my V5.

The registration adheres to the 4 and 3 characters and it's certainly not (AA11 BCD - Not mine but fits that format), and it's certainly not one of these glossy ones with flashing lights around it.

Unless it has fell off...

Should I not be given some sort of proof to say why it is illegal?
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The Rookie
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:39
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You would be given proof if you took it to court, there is no obligation to provide you with proof now, no.

So is the spacing correct, border margin correct, BS mark and makers details present and correct and nothing like a fancy logo in lieu of the flag or your name at the bottom? Now screws in funny locations?

It would be hard to guess unless you post a photo of your plate exactly as is.


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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:39) *
You would be given proof if you took it to court, there is no obligation to provide you with proof now, no.

So is the spacing correct, border margin correct, BS mark and makers details present and correct and nothing like a fancy logo in lieu of the flag or your name at the bottom? Now screws in funny locations?

It would be hard to guess unless you post a photo of your plate exactly as is.


Hi Rookie, thanks for your reply.


I am unsure if they meet those criteria. But as mentioned above I have never had any issues before.

There are certainly no flags or screws in dodgy places. Just a bog standard registration plate. To the observer, one may think the registration is not legal, as it spells out a name. for example B1 LLY. But there is a space in between the 1 and L.

I'm concerned as to how this information has been ascertained, as the road involved is one I travel down nearly every week to the doctors. If this is by camera should I be expecting several more of these letters, or would this have been done by a person?

Thanks
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samthecat
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:49
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Be aware that the 172 needs to be replied to regardless of any other factors or you risk commiting an additional ( and more serious) offence.

If there's a contact number on the form I can't see any harm in calling and asking what the issue is with the numberplate, whilst they don't have to explain at this stage they may well be obliging.

As the Rookie had said if you want an opinion on the plate post a pic on here, it either complies with legislation or it doesn't.


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If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:02
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QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:39) *
You would be given proof if you took it to court, there is no obligation to provide you with proof now, no.

So is the spacing correct, border margin correct, BS mark and makers details present and correct and nothing like a fancy logo in lieu of the flag or your name at the bottom? Now screws in funny locations?

It would be hard to guess unless you post a photo of your plate exactly as is.


Hi Rookie, thanks for your reply.


I am unsure if they meet those criteria. But as mentioned above I have never had any issues before.

There are certainly no flags or screws in dodgy places. Just a bog standard registration plate. To the observer, one may think the registration is not legal, as it spells out a name. for example B1 LLY. But there is a space in between the 1 and L.

I'm concerned as to how this information has been ascertained, as the road involved is one I travel down nearly every week to the doctors. If this is by camera should I be expecting several more of these letters, or would this have been done by a person?

Thanks

Normally a letter like this means a police officer has witnessed the offence, or CCTV evidence has been passed to the police. You have to reply to the s172 notice no matter what. For this offence there is no requirement to give you a notice of interned prosecution, within 14 or at all for that matter. The fact that you've not had problems before is neither here nor there, people drive around with dodgy plates all the time with no problems because the police normally have better things to do, so when someone gets dealt with like this it comes like a bit of a bolt out of the blue.

For an offence of this nature, you won't get a bunch of letters, this sort of offence would be processed manually and (contrary to popular belief) the police are not out to make money from fines. Dealing with more than one offence before you'd even received the first letter would not be proportionate or in the interests of justice, so they won't do it. Of course, if you haven't fixed your number plate in a month or two, that's a different story.

At this point, aside from sending the s172 nomination back, it might be an idea to give them a call and simply say that you want to get your number plate fixed as soon as possible, so could they please tell you what's wrong with it.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:02) *
QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:39) *
You would be given proof if you took it to court, there is no obligation to provide you with proof now, no.

So is the spacing correct, border margin correct, BS mark and makers details present and correct and nothing like a fancy logo in lieu of the flag or your name at the bottom? Now screws in funny locations?

It would be hard to guess unless you post a photo of your plate exactly as is.


Hi Rookie, thanks for your reply.


I am unsure if they meet those criteria. But as mentioned above I have never had any issues before.

There are certainly no flags or screws in dodgy places. Just a bog standard registration plate. To the observer, one may think the registration is not legal, as it spells out a name. for example B1 LLY. But there is a space in between the 1 and L.

I'm concerned as to how this information has been ascertained, as the road involved is one I travel down nearly every week to the doctors. If this is by camera should I be expecting several more of these letters, or would this have been done by a person?

Thanks

Normally a letter like this means a police officer has witnessed the offence, or CCTV evidence has been passed to the police. You have to reply to the s172 notice no matter what. For this offence there is no requirement to give you a notice of interned prosecution, within 14 or at all for that matter. The fact that you've not had problems before is neither here nor there, people drive around with dodgy plates all the time with no problems because the police normally have better things to do, so when someone gets dealt with like this it comes like a bit of a bolt out of the blue.

For an offence of this nature, you won't get a bunch of letters, this sort of offence would be processed manually and (contrary to popular belief) the police are not out to make money from fines. Dealing with more than one offence before you'd even received the first letter would not be proportionate or in the interests of justice, so they won't do it. Of course, if you haven't fixed your number plate in a month or two, that's a different story.

At this point, aside from sending the s172 nomination back, it might be an idea to give them a call and simply say that you want to get your number plate fixed as soon as possible, so could they please tell you what's wrong with it.



Hi, so after calling they have asked me to submit pictures of the registration, as the person from the team has no information on the system to say why I was issued it, only that it was done by a PC.

As I see it is a non endorsable fine, how much would I be looking at paying?

Thanks


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StuartBu
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:06
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QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:59) *
Hi, so after calling they have asked me to submit pictures of the registration, as the person from the team has no information on the system to say why I was issued it, only that it was done by a PC.

As I see it is a non endorsable fine, how much would I be looking at paying?

Thanks


So nothing on the system which seems odd so I'm guessing they'll be asking the PC who issued it what the problem is .
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Jlc
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:15
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As an aside, check if the maker is in the 'authorised' list - here.

QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:59) *
As I see it is a non endorsable fine, how much would I be looking at paying?

£100 I believe.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:22
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:15) *
As an aside, check if the maker is in the 'authorised' list - here.

QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:59) *
As I see it is a non endorsable fine, how much would I be looking at paying?

£100 I believe.



The plate was bought online and the website is now inaccessible unfortunately.

My wife tells me that she definitely ticked the 'road legal plate only' box when ordering.


Thanks for all replies.

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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:42
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Have a look at the plate, see if it has the correct BS marking on it.
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Alex190048
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:57
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:42) *
Have a look at the plate, see if it has the correct BS marking on it.



There is a BS marking on it
There are no flags or screws (its on with sticky pads)
There is a border at 2mm thick around the outside but that does not touch the letters/numbers.


Edit: would the fact that I have had several MOT's since putting the plate on (assuming this would also be an MOT fail) have any bearing? As my mechanic has not said anything, nor have any of the local plod.


Thanks

This post has been edited by Alex190048: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:11
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:28
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QUOTE (Alex190048 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:42) *
Have a look at the plate, see if it has the correct BS marking on it.



There is a BS marking on it
There are no flags or screws (its on with sticky pads)
There is a border at 2mm thick around the outside but that does not touch the letters/numbers.


Edit: would the fact that I have had several MOT's since putting the plate on (assuming this would also be an MOT fail) have any bearing? As my mechanic has not said anything, nor have any of the local plod.


Thanks

MOT is irrelevant. An illegal plate *should* fail the MOT, but if gets passed anyway, that is no defence in law. Is the manufacturer's name and post-code printed in small letters along the bottom edge?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:29


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Jlc
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:54
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Worth noting that the officer may be 'mistaken' in their belief it does not comply - after all it's an allegation at the moment. But without specifics it's hard to tell.

Explain the border some more?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:54


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:55
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Alex190048 has sent me a picture of his plate, don't want to be harsh but the issue is pretty obvious, the spacing is wrong so although the plate is in the format "B1 LLY", the actual plate shows "B1LLY" without the necessary space between the 1 and the L. Also the manufacturer name and postcode are missing.

Alex190048, I didn't mention this in my email but this plate in all likelihood wasn't manufactured by an authorised number plate supplier, so it's technically just a show plate that's not road legal at all. I would not buy number plates online for this very reason. My recommendation remains, go to a reputable national company like halfords with your V5C and get new plates fitted, for a standard plate it's something like £12-£15.

Regardless, you must reply to the section 172 notice, if the police send you a £100 penalty the advice is to just pay it, as you have no defence in law.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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