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Genuine mistake caught by traffic light camera
candycool
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 14:06
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I received an Intention to prosecute letter a couple of days ago. It was for an offence that occurred approximately a week ago. Although I don't remember breaking any rules, I think I can piece together what may have happened. I was driving back from the beach, and it was my first time driving on this road. I would have been in the left lane, which (according to google maps) had an arrow pointing straight on. In google maps satellite view, I can see that the light has a left filter light; so I suspect that this contravention would be that I went straight on when I saw the green light for the left filter light. I feel that the signage on the road may have misled me, and therefore, I made this mistake.

What should I do at this stage? Of course, I know that reading the rules of the forum, I have to respond within 28 days to the letter. I assume that the replies here will tell me to respond to indicate that I was the driver first and then wait for the Notice of Intended Prosecution. However, I just wanted to check here first and get some idea of what to expect and to gauge if there is any chance that I can be forgiven or let off without any points/mark against my driving record.

I am not very clued up on this forum and as such, I may need replies without acronyms and for responders to treat me as a complete newbie (i.e. speak as slowly as possible =D)

Thanks all in advance.

Pictures of all 4 sides of the letter (redacted):





Google Street View: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.558338,0....3312!8i6656

Google Maps (eastbound on A127 at the junction): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/51%C2%B...#33;4d0.6962488
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post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 14:06
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Jlc
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 14:11
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Prior to naming the driver you could ask for a photo to assist in the driver identification- they may supply one to see the offence. Unfortunately, there's no 'letting off' for a genuine error - the best you may get is a course to avoid the points.

However, if it was a significant time into the red then it will go straight to court.


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candycool
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 15:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 15:11) *
Prior to naming the driver you could ask for a photo to assist in the driver identification- they may supply one to see the offence. Unfortunately, there's no 'letting off' for a genuine error - the best you may get is a course to avoid the points.

However, if it was a significant time into the red then it will go straight to court.


Thank you for the fast reply. About halfway down on the second page, it says that they are not obliged to send any photos at this stage, and will only supply photos if the case goes to court. Should I believe the text?

I can't remember exactly what happened. I may have gone directly after the filter light went green, or I may have been stuck past the line and went when I saw the green. If I had some photo or video evidence from them, it would help me.
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peterguk
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 15:36
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QUOTE (candycool @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 16:26) *
About halfway down on the second page, it says that they are not obliged to send any photos at this stage, and will only supply photos if the case goes to court. Should I believe the text?


Yes you should believe the text, why not?

They are under no obligation to provide any evidence until you opt for court. However, if you ask for photos to assist in identifying the driver they normally do, although do not have to.

Remember to name yourself as the driver within 28 days whether the photos arrive or not.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sat, 12 May 2018 - 15:49


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goku
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 19:10
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 16:36) *
QUOTE (candycool @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 16:26) *
About halfway down on the second page, it says that they are not obliged to send any photos at this stage, and will only supply photos if the case goes to court. Should I believe the text?


Yes you should believe the text, why not?

They are under no obligation to provide any evidence until you opt for court. However, if you ask for photos to assist in identifying the driver they normally do, although do not have to.

Remember to name yourself as the driver within 28 days whether the photos arrive or not.


If you look at the google street view, the camera faces the back of cars; would it be worth still asking?
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Mr Meldrew
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 21:34
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The left lane accommodates traffic needing to proceed left or straight ahead (as of Sept 2017). Drivers would be prevented from proceeding straight ahead by a solo turn left arrow, which would prevent drivers from proceeding left. This is why I think your piecing together of what may have happened might be wrong, unless the ahead arrow light had failed.

If the accusation is that you failed to comply with a red light, then I think any potential NIP should be clear about that. In my opinion as a layperson, this would not be evidence but would be information required in order to promptly and properly inform you of the accusation against you.


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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The Rookie
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 07:16
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The offences listed are all the same actual offence, failing to comply with a traffic sign, so i’d disagree.


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Jlc
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 08:23
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QUOTE (goku @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 20:10) *
If you look at the google street view, the camera faces the back of cars; would it be worth still asking?

Indeed, but they often supply when asked. It's more just to confirm the offence in one's own mind - it's unlikely to actually assist in the identification...

QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 22:34) *
then I think any potential NIP should be clear about that. In my opinion as a layperson, this would not be evidence but would be information required in order to promptly and properly inform you of the accusation against you.

s.1 (1) (c ) RTOA 1988 - '...specifying the nature of the alleged offence...', I would find to argue that the 'nature' of the allegation isn't sufficient here.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 13 May 2018 - 08:24


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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StuartBu
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 10:46
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In Pic 1 in Post 1 it shows the offence as
DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLE FAIL COMPLY WITH RED /GREEN ARROW/LANE CLOSURE TRAFFIC LIGHT SIGNALS -AUTOMATIC EQUIPMENT .

Is that how all such offences are worded or is the human element at work here as grammatically that is a fail.
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StuartBu
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 11:05
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 22:34) *
The left lane accommodates traffic needing to proceed left or straight ahead (as of Sept 2017). Drivers would be prevented from proceeding straight ahead by a solo turn left arrow, which would prevent drivers from proceeding left. This is why I think your piecing together of what may have happened might be wrong, unless the ahead arrow light had failed.


Did you mean "from proceeding straight ahead)

This is one of these arrangements where a car can ,quite legitimately per the road markings, be first in the LH lane and going straight ahead but cannot do so until the main lights turn green but other cars behind who might want to turn left cannot do so because of the first car .
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Mr Meldrew
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 14:36
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 12:05) *
QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 22:34) *
The left lane accommodates traffic needing to proceed left or straight ahead (as of Sept 2017). Drivers would be prevented from proceeding straight ahead by a solo turn left arrow, which would prevent drivers from proceeding left. This is why I think your piecing together of what may have happened might be wrong, unless the ahead arrow light had failed.

Did you mean "from proceeding straight ahead)

This is one of these arrangements where a car can ,quite legitimately per the road markings, be first in the LH lane and going straight ahead but cannot do so until the main lights turn green but other cars behind who might want to turn left cannot do so because of the first car .

No, but I wouldn’t argue you’re incorrect without further evidence, although historic GSV views do show the left and ahead arrows lit simultaneously.


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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The Rookie
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 14:53
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They may be, but it doesn’t tell you what the complete cycle is, not unusual to have different phasing.


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StuartBu
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 15:28
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 15:36) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 12:05) *
QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 22:34) *
The left lane accommodates traffic needing to proceed left or straight ahead (as of Sept 2017). Drivers would be prevented from proceeding straight ahead by a solo turn left arrow, which would prevent drivers from proceeding left. This is why I think your piecing together of what may have happened might be wrong, unless the ahead arrow light had failed.

Did you mean "from proceeding straight ahead)

This is one of these arrangements where a car can ,quite legitimately per the road markings, be first in the LH lane and going straight ahead but cannot do so until the main lights turn green but other cars behind who might want to turn left cannot do so because of the first car .

No, but I wouldn’t argue you’re incorrect without further evidence, although historic GSV views do show the left and ahead arrows lit simultaneously.


Yes but the straight ahead arrow is separate from the turn left arrow and forms the green on the main set of lights so if you are in the LH lane intending to go straight ahead you cannot ( or should not) go straight on until the other lanes get the go ahead.
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Mr Meldrew
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:04
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 15:53) *
They may be, but it doesn’t tell you what the complete cycle is, not unusual to have different phasing.

Accepted.

QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:28) *
QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 22:34) *
Drivers would be prevented from proceeding straight ahead by a solo turn left arrow...

Yes but the straight ahead arrow is separate from the turn left arrow and forms the green on the main set of lights so if you are in the LH lane intending to go straight ahead you cannot ( or should not) go straight on until the other lanes get the go ahead.

It seems we're in agreement.


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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StuartBu
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:06
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 17:04) *
It seems we're in agreement.


That's good :-)
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Tartarus
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 10:19
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 12:05) *
This is one of these arrangements where a car can ,quite legitimately per the road markings, be first in the LH lane and going straight ahead but cannot do so until the main lights turn green but other cars behind who might want to turn left cannot do so because of the first car .

Yeah, there's one of those near where I live. The annoying part is, most cars want to turn left from lane one than go straight on, so you are almost forced to travel in lane two as a result to proceed ahead (which is legal per the road markings, you can go straight or turn right), but then must adjust a bit to line yourself up with the road on the other side of the crossing heh.
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Colin_S
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 10:58
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I very much doubt the left turn signal operates separate from the straight on one at this location. I believe it is likely to be there due to the traffic lights controlling right turns separate from the main flow of traffic. Most of the busy junctions in that neck of the woods (A13 springs to mind) have 2 way greens on the main straight on and left turn flows and then a 2 way green on the right turns in both directions with a full green both ways on the minor crossing roads.

I've scoured google images from all angles and found this older example which clearly shows the change from red to green of the offending lights with no indication of an earlier illuminated left turn signal. I suspect the OP simply 'jumped' the red lights, maybe mistaking the traffic turning right as his green light.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.558184,0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by Colin_S: Mon, 14 May 2018 - 10:59
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 11:01
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So you know the left turn doesn't stay green after the red for straight on is illuminated? It happens all the turn with right turns after all.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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StuartBu
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 11:06
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 12:01) *
So you know the left turn doesn't stay green after the red for straight on is illuminated? It happens all the turn with right turns after all.

We need a video of the lights so we can see the sequence.
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Colin_S
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 11:12
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 12:06) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 12:01) *
So you know the left turn doesn't stay green after the red for straight on is illuminated? It happens all the turn with right turns after all.

We need a video of the lights so we can see the sequence.


You can pretty much create one by backing up the road some distance and then clicking towards the lights. In none of the sequences can I see the left filter illuminated other than when the ahead green is on and I've found both red to green and green to red.


Changing to red - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5578373,0...3312!8i6656

And to green - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.558338,0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by Colin_S: Mon, 14 May 2018 - 11:15
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