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Red Route Parking Ticket
Lisa Turnball
post Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 17:26
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I have just been issued a Red Route PCN for parking outside restricted hours by 13 mins. I was well inside the red-route parking bays not over the lines. I hadn't read the notice carefully enough about the time restrictions and thought you could park anytime - but up to 20 mins max. I was only gone 30 seconds or so. Apparently, I could only park there up to 4pm. I was 13 minutes past that time.

When I got out of the shop the PCSO (in a police car) who was issuing the notice at the time I arrived back at my car would not let me off, even when I explained I had just gone inside for a few seconds to retrieve some essential drugs. He wouldn't rip up the notice.

Aren't these PCSO suppose to exercise some discretion? I was not gone more than 30 secs-1 minute door to door from my car. I feel that his behaviour is deplorable and extremely petty. Is there any way I can fight this because the ticket was issued over a petty / trivial matter - given the length of time I was parked. I am sure I could get the chemist staff to validate the time I was with them - just a few seconds inside the shop. There was no buses in the area at the time and traffic was quite low.

Has anyone fought this successfully before? The enforcement notice will not act a deterrent, it is the sort of thing that just makes you hate the police and Tfl for being so bull-headed and unreasonable. Now I have to pay £130 for the privilege or £65 within 14 days for not inconveniencing anyone, let alone buses or other traffic, just for picking up a pack of medicines. I am really furious.

This post has been edited by Lisa Turnball: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 17:35
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post Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 17:26
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makara
post Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 17:37
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Post up both sides of the ticket (edit out name and address) - link to Google Street View - and any photos
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DastardlyDick
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:33
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Subject to seeing the PCN etc. as requested above, it would appear that you're bang to rights on the contravention itself.

As for discretion, yes, PCSOs (and indeed Police Officers) can exercise discretion, but they don't have to. In my experience of Chemists, they take a lot longer than 30 seconds to 1 minute to dish out meds - that wouldn't even cover paying any charges, let alone signing prescriptions, them getting the stuff etc.

I think you're going to have to rely on TfL using their discretion to cancel this on mitigating circumstances, collecting essential meds. Something like:-

"On (date) at (time) at (location) I was issued with PCN (PCN No.) while I was collecting medication for my (whoever it was) to treat his/her (Illness/condition) which was urgently required as he/she had run out of it.
Please would you exercise your discretion in this case and cancel the PCN." would probably do.

Obviously, use your own words, and don't go off on a rant about unfairness etc, tempting though it is!

This will hold the penalty at the discount while they think about it, and even if/when they reject your challenge, they'll re-offer the discount.

Just out of interest, what were you collecting?

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:36
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Lisa Turnball
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 23:45
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Hi DD, thanks for your reply.

I really did only take up to a minute in the shop - the door was right by the place I parked. The pack of meds just needed retrieving from the back of the shop up two steps - they were already bagged up (having been there to get them two days ago when they weren't ready). They knew I was coming in yesterday so they were ready and waiting for me. So they just took them out of a drawer and handed them to me. I just ticked the form and left. It really did take all of 30 secs-1 min. I didn't have to pay for the prescription as mine are free of charge.

I don't doubt I actually broke the law here, under strict liability, because I did park on a red route space after the restricted times, but for such short timeframe I thought it might come under the category of 'trivia/petty' and therefore unenforceable (I've forgotten the correct legal term for this - I know there is one).

As it is, I have photographed the space I parked in and signage today. What has emerged is that the signage was skewed and unreadable from where I approached to park - the two signs on the parking spaces were facing away and could not be read on approach or even in the car where I'd stopped. There were no similar signs with the same information in other neighbouring roads either where I could have learned of the restriction times prior to approaching from where I did. Therefore, I would have needed to stop the car in the same parking space to go up to them and read them, which would have amounted to a contravention for roughly the same time I stayed there for going in the chemist. Surely there has to be a grace period to read the signage if they are not readable whilst driving and you have to actually park illegally on the same spots in order to get out of the car to go up to them and read them. They were not visible from the road I came out of either. Therefore, I wonder if I have a good case for getting it thrown out. I will post up the photos tomorrow.

Surely it is always the case that the driver needs to be able to avert the contravention without having to commit it to avoid it, so to speak. In my case I could not. I could not read it driving by (too fast), I could not see the signage opposite from the road I emerged from (out of sight) and once on the parking space I could not read it at all (facing away from me) to enable to me drive off immediately within a couple of seconds of parking illegally. Surely that is a cut and dried case for getting it thrown out.
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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 09:37
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QUOTE (Lisa Turnball @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 23:45) *
Hi DD, thanks for your reply.

I really did only take up to a minute in the shop - the door was right by the place I parked. The pack of meds just needed retrieving from the back of the shop up two steps - they were already bagged up (having been there to get them two days ago when they weren't ready). They knew I was coming in yesterday so they were ready and waiting for me. So they just took them out of a drawer and handed them to me. I just ticked the form and left. It really did take all of 30 secs-1 min. I didn't have to pay for the prescription as mine are free of charge.

I don't doubt I actually broke the law here, under strict liability, because I did park on a red route space after the restricted times, but for such short timeframe I thought it might come under the category of 'trivia/petty' and therefore unenforceable (I've forgotten the correct legal term for this - I know there is one).

As it is, I have photographed the space I parked in and signage today. What has emerged is that the signage was skewed and unreadable from where I approached to park - the two signs on the parking spaces were facing away and could not be read on approach or even in the car where I'd stopped. There were no similar signs with the same information in other neighbouring roads either where I could have learned of the restriction times prior to approaching from where I did. Therefore, I would have needed to stop the car in the same parking space to go up to them and read them, which would have amounted to a contravention for roughly the same time I stayed there for going in the chemist. Surely there has to be a grace period to read the signage if they are not readable whilst driving and you have to actually park illegally on the same spots in order to get out of the car to go up to them and read them. They were not visible from the road I came out of either. Therefore, I wonder if I have a good case for getting it thrown out. I will post up the photos tomorrow.

Surely it is always the case that the driver needs to be able to avert the contravention without having to commit it to avoid it, so to speak. In my case I could not. I could not read it driving by (too fast), I could not see the signage opposite from the road I emerged from (out of sight) and once on the parking space I could not read it at all (facing away from me) to enable to me drive off immediately within a couple of seconds of parking illegally. Surely that is a cut and dried case for getting it thrown out.


OK, if the signs were not facing oncoming traffic, then you could well have a case, and you have a point about the shortness of the stop - it's called de minimis - however, you could end up going to Adjudication with the full £130 at risk if TfL decide to dig their heels in.
If you could post up the information requested by Makara, above, it would be very helpful - use a picture site like flickr - PCNs can contain incorrect wording which renders them invalid. Google Street View (GSV) links are useful for checking the signs and lines are correct as are your photo's. Some of the experts on here won't reply to posts unless this information is provided.
When you post the PCN, obscure/redact the PCN No. and Reg. No. but leave location etc visible.
You could send a challenge to TfL as I outlined above, but including the brevity of the stop plus the fact that the signs were not facing oncoming traffic as required by TSRGD 2016.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 10:04
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stamfordman
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 10:29
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TFL has pretty much zero tolerance for stopping on a red route and once you left the car rather than a quick look at the sign it's going to be very hard to get this cancelled and as DD says will mean risking the full amount.

However, we've had a few recent cancellations (not from TFL though) on asking for discretion on the basis of minimal or honest mistakes so it's worth asking but not necessarily risking the discount if they reject. Were the meds an urgent need?
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spaceman
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:47
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:33) *
...which was urgently required as he/she had run out of it.


Do we know this? The OP has not said this was the case.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 15:16
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:47) *
QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:33) *
...which was urgently required as he/she had run out of it.


Do we know this? The OP has not said this was the case.


The Op has not said very much at all. Without sight of the PCN and a GSV (we can usually find this if the location is clear on the PCN) and the council photos, our help must be limited to say sorry and ask them to let you off.

There could be loads of reasons why they have to, we just don't know


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 23:17
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:47) *
QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:33) *
...which was urgently required as he/she had run out of it.


Do we know this? The OP has not said this was the case.


A good point, she didn't - I made the error of assuming blush.gif

OP disregard that bit in your appeal - unless of course it's true - and the meds were for an urgent need (as Stamfordman says) getting a packet of aspirin won't wash!

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 09:50
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