Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Rules on fines from Foreign countries.

Posted by: helicopterman Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 12:57
Post #1406581

Until earlier I did not know of the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive.

Under the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive, the DVLA have very kindly given my details to another EU member state who has sent me a letter. The fine is small, but I am a bit worried as this was a road trip in a fast car and we were pressing on a bit. The offence in question occurred on day 2 of a 14 day trip . I fear many more, and much larger fines may be forthcoming. :-O

For this fine particular the issue date of the paperwork is 15 days after the offence, and it has taken 18 days to arrive. So maybe I can point this out and get the matter quashed. I believe a UK NIP is unenforceable unless issued within 14 days, so how does this stand in European countries - Does anyone know if this is only EU member states?

Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


Posted by: Jlc Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:00
Post #1406585

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117812 is worth a read.

Posted by: Logician Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:32
Post #1406601

I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:08
Post #1406628

QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

No, Switzerland isn't a member of the EU or even the EEA for that matter.

Posted by: helicopterman Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 15:45
Post #1406660

QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:32) *
I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?



Most probably. We were on a 2400 mile road trip, that was all about the driving!


QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:00) *
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117812 is worth a read.



Yes, absolutely made my day that. :-(

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:58
Post #1406737

QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:32) *
I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?

I've seen them go off, at least some of them have orange lights at the side of the road that flash to tell you you've been caught.

Posted by: baroudeur Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 15:53
Post #1406998

QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 20:03
Post #1407038

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.

There is an EU council decision that provides for cross-border recovery of traffic fines, but it's only for EU member states.

Posted by: baroudeur Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:39
Post #1407119

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.

There is an EU council decision that provides for cross-border recovery of traffic fines, but it's only for EU member states.



That is correct but it relates to all financial transactions not just traffic offence fines. The UK does not take part. The relative part about recovering traffic penalties is here

https://tinyurl.com/y8wn4pfw

Posted by: L.Saroyan Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:23
Post #1407206

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:39) *
That is correct but it relates to all financial transactions not just traffic offence fines. The UK does not take part. The relative part about recovering traffic penalties is here
https://tinyurl.com/y8wn4pfw

What exactly makes you think that the UK doesn't take part in that?

The Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA was transposed into UK law. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/section/84 If we were no longer taking part then all of this would have been repealed.
It doesn't just exist on paper, it has been used, if only rarely.

http://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmeuleg/683/68310.htm
QUOTE (European Scrutiny Committee)
(59) Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA of 24 February 2005 on the application of the principle of mutual recognition to financial penalties
OUTLINE OF INSTRUMENT
151. This Framework Decision ensures that offenders are not able to escape justice simply because they do not live in the Member State where they offend. It requires Member States to collect financial penalties (of over 70) transferred by other Member States, as they would a domestic financial penalty. The enforcing Member State that collects the financial penalty can keep it (but compensation order monies must be remitted back to the victim). The money collected goes to the Consolidated Fund and the Ministry of Justice receives a proportion of this back under the Fines Incentive Scheme.

TRANSPOSITION INTO NATIONAL LAW
152. The Framework Decision was implemented into England, Wales and Northern Ireland law in 2009, through the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. There was a minor amendment made through the Criminal Procedure Rules 2011. In Scotland the Framework Decision was implemented by the Mutual Recognition of Criminal Financial Penalties in the European Union (Scotland) Order (SSI 2009/342).

THE GOVERNMENT'S VIEW
153. Between June 2010 and September 2012, England and Wales received 393 cases from other Member States, with a total value of just over £90,000 and an average value of approximately £240 per penalty. There were 126 outgoing penalties from England and Wales to other Member States between December 2010 and October 2012. The total value of the outgoing penalties in this period was approximately £50,000, with an average value of approximately £400 per penalty.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=71768&view=findpost&p=722247

One might get the impression from the above thread that the OP's Article 6 rights were breached. Fortunately since then there has been (2014) an http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/schedule/19/paragraph/6 which should prevent what happened to him occurring now.

So, if you have a fine from Switzerland, as they are not a member state, they cannot use the mechanism described above. But if the fine is from a member state then don't make the mistake of the OP in the thread I linked. It is quite possible for EU fines to be enforced here, but you must have been informed in English first of you will have a solid defense. What happens after March 2019 however...

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)