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ZIPCAR PCN - Loading Bay (ZipCar Aware?)
ZipCarDriver
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 22:39
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Hi,

I'm hoping you can help me out with some advice in relation to a PCN ZipCar received in relation to their car being parked in a Loading bay.

Date of Notice: 02/01/2018
Date Zipcar informed me they had been issued a NTO: 11/02/2018

Contravention Date & Time: 22/11/2017 09:03
Contravention: 25 - Parked in a loading bay or place during restricted hours without loading

The reason I had parked in this bay at the end of my reservation the day previous (21/11/2017 shortly after 22:00) was due to the CarClub assigned bay being occupied by another vehicle. At that time I contacted ZipCar by phone to obtain advice which I believed I had correctly followed. Once I had parked the vehicle I called them again to notify them of the exact location I had parked, which was directly next to another ZipCar close by parked in it's assigned bay. I ended my communication with Zipcar with them being informed of the location, and myself believing the car was parked properly. Of course, otherwise I would have found another alternative space!

Further to this the bay is not, at least in my opinion, very clearly marked, especially when it is dark and considering all other loading bays, except this one and one other of around 10 in total in the apartment complex, have different road markings / or laid with brick instead of tarmac to signify they are not a residents bay.

So far ZipCar deny that I informed them of where the vehicle was parked, which is an untruth, and I understand that the time period that ZipCar could appeal the NTO has now expired due to their delay/inaction. I would greatly appreciate any advice you can give for next steps.

Please find the NTO, photos I have taken of the location I had parked (taken yesterday), and my communications via email so far attached or below:

Pictures of location (approximately where the Royal Mail van is parked), the Car Club bay to the right is a ZipCar bay other than the one assigned to the car I had parked, which was parked correctly at the time:
https://ibb.co/mwXYmS
https://ibb.co/bBueRS
https://ibb.co/mME2fn
https://ibb.co/ee2YmS
https://ibb.co/iSr4t7

This is how all (but 1 other) loading bay's in the development (and zone) are differentiated from residents spaces. None of the loading spaces have letters on the road:
https://ibb.co/etxG6S


Emails:

From Zipcar - Sat, 10 Feb 2018
Dear [removed],

We have received a Penalty Charge Notice [PCN ID] on [vehicle registration]. Unfortunately, having consulted our records I am sorry to inform you that responsibility has been attributed to your account.

The charge was issued after your booking. Please log into your Zipcar Account and follow the link below to view a copy of the notice which has the full details of the charge. Your booking ran from Nov 21st, 2017, 6:30pm - 10pm. Members are still liable for PCN's that are issued after their booking, as a result of the vehicle being left parked incorrectly.

[LINK REMOVED]

We will pay the charge in five days and will add £130.00 and a £15.00 processing charge to your bill then. The processing charge covers the cost to us of dealing with the large volume of notices that we receive.

If you feel this Notice was issued incorrectly and would like to appeal it, please contact us by responding to this email within this window.

If we do not hear from you the PCN will be paid and settled by Zipcar and the associated charge applied to your account in 5 days time. So if you are satisfied that the PCN has been issued correctly no further action is required by you.

If you have any queries regarding this please do not hesitate to contact us by replying to this email.

Kind regards,

Zipcar Operations Support

From Me - Saturday 11 Feb 2018
Hi,

Thanks for getting in touch.

At the end of my reservation the allocated Car Club Parking bay was filled with a non-car club vehicle.

I followed instructions given by Zipcar to park in any other Newham Council parking bay, which I understood that I had.

Can this PCN be appealed on this basis?

Best,
[removed]


From ZipCar - Mon, 12 Feb 2018

Dear [removed],

Thank you for getting in touch regarding PCN [removed] on [Removed].

It is the member's responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is left parked legally both during and at the end of their booking. The vehicle must be left parked legally within the designated bay at the end of a booking regardless of where the vehicle is picked up from. If this is not possible for any reason the member must call Zipcar and follow the instructions of the operative they speak to.

Unfortunately it does sometimes happen that our bay may be inaccessible. We do however have a contingency procedure agreed with the local authority for each of our locations to make sure that the vehicle can still be left parked legally, as this is still the member's responsibility in these circumstances. With this particular location we are allowed to temporarily park in a residents, shared use, pr unrestricted bay within the borough in these circumstances provided that we contact the council and advise them of this.

It is therefore important that members call us whenever they are unable to park legally within the designated bay and make sure to follow the instructions of the operative that they speak to. In this instance I can see that you did call us and were advise on the above mentioned bays in which it would be safe to park our vehicle but unfortunately you did not call us to advise on the vehicles location and you had parked in a Loading bay as opposed to any of the bays in which it would have been safe to park.

Unfortunately because the vehicle was left parked illegally at the end of your booking, we cannot successfully appeal this PCN and it has been correctly attributed to your account. I'm afraid we will therefore need to pay and apply the associated charge.

I understand that this is a frustrating situation, but we need you to remember that PCNs are not issued by Zipcar, but by the local authority. We try to accommodate our members as best we can, but we, as a company need to recover the costs of these fines from the members responsible.

Kind Regards,

Zipcar Operations Support

From Me - Monday, 12 Feb 2018
Hi Zipcar,

Thanks for your email regarding PCN [removed] on VRM [removed].

You have claimed that I did not call ZipCar to inform you of where I had parked the vehicle at the end of my reservation, this is incorrect.

I initially called Zipcar from my contact number, [removed], at 22:08 on the number 03332409000 advising Zipcar that the designated bay was occupied by another vehicle. This duration of the call was 00:03:35. At this time I then followed the instructions given, as I understood them, and parked in another available Newham bay.

I then called again, as instructed on the previous call, from my contact number, [removed], at 22:14 on the number 03332409000 and fully explained the location I had parked the car. Stating several times this was directly behind/next to another ZipCar vehicle bay. I quoted the vehicle registration of the ZipCar, parked in its assigned bay, I had parked adjacent to. The advisor located the location and street upon which it was parked while I was on the call. To this effect, Zipcar was aware of the location I had parked the car. This call duration was 00:03:55.

At the time I parked the vehicle, and the time I made Zipcar aware of where the vehicle was parked, the vehicle I had parked was not parked illegally and was not subject to any restrictions until 9am the next day. As I had informed and agreed with a Zipcar advisor on the location of where I had parked the vehicle, I fail to understand why Zipcar is now claiming I liable for this charge.

Please check your records as it appears you have made an administration error with the handling of your calls and records.

Best,

[removed]

From ZipCar - Wed, 14 Feb 2018

Dear [removed],

Thank you for replying to my email regarding PCN [removed] on VRM [removed].

Please accept my apologies for my previous email in which I wrongly confirmed that you had not called us at the end of your reservation.

I have searched our records and I can confirm that you have in fact called and spoke to one of our operators. Unfortunately after reviewing the call I must advise that our agent advised you that since you were unable to park our vehicle in its dedicated car club bay you had to find a residents or unrestricted bay within the borough and give us a call with an exact location.

Unfortunately you parked our vehicle in a Loading bay or space during restricted hours without loading and did not call in with the exact location.

Because you did not follow our instructions and parked the vehicle illegally we were not able to assess the situation and act in accordance in order to avoid a PCN.

I am sorry to say that this PCN has been correctly added to your account and that have no valid grounds to send an appeal to the issuing authority.

We will therefore need to pay and add the associated charges to your account. As a good will gesture , I have waived the admin fee for you on this occasion. Please be aware that we will not be able to do this again in future however.

If you have any queries please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Kind Regards

Zipcar Operations Support

From Me - Wed, 14 Feb 2018
Hi Zipcar,

Thanks for confirming that another call did take place. However I must inform you that I did call and advised of the exact location once I had parked the vehicle.

I confirmed the location by giving the location I had parked the vehicle relative to another Zipcar parked in it's dedicated bay, which I had parked directly next to. This was discussed on the call with the advisor.

At the end of this call I was satisfied that I was correctly parked as advised and confirmed by the Zipcar Operator, after confirming the exact location I had parked with them.

On this basis I don't feel the PCN has been correctly added to my account, however, I would also note upon reviewing the location I parked again that the signage that this is a loading bay is likely inadequate and would recommend this PCN is appealed on this basis. The Loading Bay signage is confusing, poorly lit / not easily visible, there is no Loading Bay or differentiating markings on the road and all but one of the other loading bays in the East Village parking zone are brick laid to signify they are not residents parking, whereas the bay where the PCN was issued is not.

Please could you advise how I can assist you in submitting an appeal for this PCN?

Best,

[removed]

From Me - Wed, 14 Feb 2018

Hi Zipcar,

Without prejudice and further to my earlier email, there are further grounds upon which this PCN was not correctly issued by the Parking Officer.

The Observation Policy set out by Newham Council as detailed in the document linked here specifies that contravention 25 should have a observation time of 5 minutes before any PCN should be issued. As the loading bay is only restricted after 09:00 and the PCN was issued at 09:03 this is further grounds for appeal.

Best,

[removed]

Oops - Yes I realise now that that previous email isn't correct, as the Loading bay restriction starts at 8am, not 9am. Made a mess of that.

From Me - Wed, 14 Feb 2018

Hi Zipcar,

Apologies and without prejudice, after re-reviewing the details of the loading bay I can see the restriction starts at 8am and not 9am as I stated in my previous email.

Please dis-regard my previous email.

Best,

[removed]


###

Thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 22:42
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post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 22:39
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lashes1984
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:35
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Reading what Zip Car wrote it appears that they would make representations against the NTO using what the OP has written, so it wouldn’t be the OP making representations.

The authority can consider representations outside of the time normally permitted, which is at their discretion and something that I can see them doing for Zip Car.
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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:39
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There is nothing which says the PCN must be issued during the currency of the hiring agreement, it is only a requirement that the PCN be issued in respect of a contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement

@ZipCarDriver, I would write back with something along the lines of:

Dear Zipcar, please submit the following appeal to the enforcement authority:

Grounds for appeal: We are a vehicle hire firm, the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from us under a hiring agreement, and the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement:

The alleged parking contravention, if it occurred, occurred from when the vehicle was parked by the hirer at 21:xx and it was a continuous contravention from the moment the vehicle was parked, up to the moment the PCN was issued. The PCN was therefore issued "in respect of a parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement" and "the material time" should be constructed accordingly. The enforcement authority should therefore cancel the Notice to Owner and issue a new Notice to Owner to the hirer who allegedly committed the contravention. Please find enclosed records showing the vehicle was not moved between the time the vehicle was parked, and the time when the PCN was issued.

------------------

You could for good measure include a signed statement (which you would need to scan in as an attachment) accepting that you parked the vehicle at the location of the alleged contravention at 21:xx hours, to corroborate Zipcar's records.

There are three ways things can play out:
The reps get rejected for being out of time (in which case fault lies with Zipcar and their unreasonable delay, so it's on them)
Liability does get transferred, you get your own NtO and we can take it from there (even if we don't find any valid grounds to appeal, you could still ask the authority to accept the reduced penalty)
The reps get rejected, in which case you can ask Zipcar to appeal to London tribunals.

In any event as the discount is not (currently) available, adopting this strategy is pretty much risk free.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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ZipCarDriver
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:39) *
There is nothing which says the PCN must be issued during the currency of the hiring agreement, it is only a requirement that the PCN be issued in respect of a contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement

@ZipCarDriver, I would write back with something along the lines of:

Dear Zipcar, please submit the following appeal to the enforcement authority:

Grounds for appeal: We are a vehicle hire firm, the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from us under a hiring agreement, and the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement:

The alleged parking contravention, if it occurred, occurred from when the vehicle was parked by the hirer at 21:xx and it was a continuous contravention from the moment the vehicle was parked, up to the moment the PCN was issued. The PCN was therefore issued "in respect of a parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement" and "the material time" should be constructed accordingly. The enforcement authority should therefore cancel the Notice to Owner and issue a new Notice to Owner to the hirer who allegedly committed the contravention. Please find enclosed records showing the vehicle was not moved between the time the vehicle was parked, and the time when the PCN was issued.

------------------

You could for good measure include a signed statement (which you would need to scan in as an attachment) accepting that you parked the vehicle at the location of the alleged contravention at 21:xx hours, to corroborate Zipcar's records.

There are three ways things can play out:
The reps get rejected for being out of time (in which case fault lies with Zipcar and their unreasonable delay, so it's on them)
Liability does get transferred, you get your own NtO and we can take it from there (even if we don't find any valid grounds to appeal, you could still ask the authority to accept the reduced penalty)
The reps get rejected, in which case you can ask Zipcar to appeal to London tribunals.

In any event as the discount is not (currently) available, adopting this strategy is pretty much risk free.


Thanks, this would make sense, however the bay is unrestricted between the hours of 9pm and 8am. It's a Loading Bay between 8am and 11am, and then a restricted bay between 11am and 9pm. (https://ibb.co/mME2fn).

This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:51
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stamfordman
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:03
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While it seems reasonable you can write Zips' reps for them I see no angle to succeed with. The car was, after all, in the bay. The rep could though try and recover the discount. Where did the PCN served on the car go?

Also, who moved the car out of the loading bay?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:04
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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:09
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QUOTE (ZipCarDriver @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:50) *
Thanks, this would make sense, however the bay is unrestricted between the hours of 9pm and 8am. It's a Loading Bay between 8am and 11am, and then a restricted bay between 11am and 9pm. (https://ibb.co/mME2fn).

That is problematic, and the legislation is somewhat deficient here. I don't see much hope of you winning on the signs (unless someone finds some technical issue with them) as they look clear, unfortunately when you park in a bay you are expected to check the sign applicable to that bay. At this point your best option might be to send an email to Zipcar asking them to make representations along the lines of:

"I accept I was at fault on this occasion, however because I did not receive the PCN, I never had the opportunity to pay the discounted amount. The council should not, for obvious public policy reasons, put car club users at a disadvantage compared to private car owners, and a private car owner would have had the opportunity to pay the discounted penalty. I therefore submit that, on this particular occasion, the authority should accept £65 as settlement of this penalty".

Again, there is no risk in pursuing this strategy, at least it gives you have a chance of paying £65 rather than £130.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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hcandersen
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:03
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As a matter of legal construction, Avis do not consider that the contravention occurred during the currency of the hire agreement. We might return to this later.

As a matter of contract law they must take all reasonable steps to mitigate their losses. We will return to this later.

They must therefore submit reps - so far all they've done is to explain why (in their opinion) they could not based on what the OP wrote.

The OP now appears to accept that their pevious approach was not the best. Good, it's behind us.

The OP did not leave the vehicle in contravention, only prospective contravention.

OP, as suggested get back to Avis.

Remember this is your big chance to make your points, or rather get them to make reps accepting THEIR errors, yes, this is the opportunity to put words into their mouth because these are THEIR reps, not yours.

Personally I wouldn't bother with references to public policy, I would refer to ' no doubt the company are aware of their obligation to mitigate their losses and getting the authority to agree to re-offer the discount would go some way to achieving this end. The reps should then recount the events from the company's perspective, not the OP's. (In this respect there are gaps which only Avis can fill e.g. who recovered the vehicle, when and what happened to the PCN etc. But maybe these could be finessed, however this might take time to find out and there's none left )
We make it clear to all members that they should only leave vehicles in authorised locations but for some reason this point was misunderstood by our member who appears to have interpreted this as being able to leave the vehicle where at the time it was permitted but forgetting the prospect of being in contravention with the natural passage of time. We have an obligation to try and mitigate our member's prospective losses, therefore we should be grateful if the authority would consider exercising discretion to cancel the PCN on this occasion or at least re-offering the discount. We would apologise for submitting these representations late which was due to an internal processing error.



OP, I would definitely get that last part in your draft of THEIR reps, you might as well flag it up and IMO there's no better way than getting them to acknowledge this now - you might rely on this admission later.

And if they won't play ball, or if the authority don't either because they disregard them or do not re-offer the discount, then let battle commence because by their own actions, and inaction, IMO they have denied themselves the right to impose a unilateral charge equivalent to the full extent of their losses which would be the value of the full penalty.
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ZipCarDriver
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:26
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Thanks again for your thoughts & comments. I have incorporated your ideas into a draft to respond with and would appreciate any additional thoughts.

QUOTE
Dear Sir or Madam,

Parking ticket number: [ticket reference number]

Vehicle registration number: [vehicle registration number]

Our Car Club Member was unable to return our vehicle to its dedicated Car Club Bay on this occasion due to the dedicated bay being occupied by an unauthorised vehicle at the end of our members vehicle reservation period / hire agreement at aproximately 22:00 the 21st November.

We make it clear to all members that they should only leave vehicles in authorised locations but for some reason this point was misunderstood by our member who appears to have interpreted this as being able to leave the vehicle where at the time it was permitted but forgetting the prospect of being in contravention with the natural passage of time.

We have an obligation to try and mitigate our member's prospective losses, therefore we should be grateful if the authority would consider exercising discretion to cancel the PCN on this occasion or at least re-offering the discount. We would apologise for submitting these representations late which was due to an internal processing error.

Yours faithfully,


Couple questions:
  • My interpretation of ZipCar's request is that they would like me to make reps as if from myself, which they will apply a cover letter to. Not confident they'd forward this as is?
  • Who would be best to sign from do you think? ZipCar, Avis, leave blank as I am neither?


Thanks again!

This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:28
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4101
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:29
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council will not cancel, you might get re offered the discount, council likes money
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ZipCarDriver
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:40
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QUOTE (4101 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:29) *
council will not cancel, you might get re offered the discount, council likes money


Offtopic - You would have thought they (Newham Council) would have done a better deal on the London Staduim wink.gif .

Also, no harm is asking for 100% off and settling for 50? is there?! But yes, expectations managed.

This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 15:43
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hcandersen
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:11
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You CANNOT make reps as if from you.

You are not the recipient of the NTO, this is Avis, and IN LAW only the recipient may submit reps:

Representations against notice to owner

4.—(1) The recipient may make representations against a notice to owner to the enforcement authority which served the notice on him.


It's possible that they may baulk at your draft.

Good.

The next stage is that they will try and pass on what they consider to be their losses for a contractual breach but they would have shot themselves in the foot if they refused without good reason to submit the draft reps which you had submitted. At this stage we would move from parking regs to contract law.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:14
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ZipCarDriver
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 13:42
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I have submitted the draft as previously posted signed Zipcar attached to an email as quoted below:

QUOTE
Dear Zipcar,

Thank you for your email on Friday 16/02/2018 regarding PCN [removed] on VRM [removed] explaining your actions in regard to not transferring liability of the PCN, and instructions on how to proceed to appeal.

As per your instructions, please find attached in a word document representations I have drafted on behalf of Zipcar.

Best,


This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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ZipCarDriver
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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I have received the following, not unexpected, reply from ZipCar. Any suggestions on where to go from here?

QUOTE
Dear,

Thank you very much for sending us your appeal.

Unfortunately you have sent us an appeal on behalf of Zipcar which is incorrect.

I will need to request you to send us your own personal appeal and your feelings about why this PCN should be cancelled.

Again please send it as a new email to ukviolations@zipcar.co.uk so we can forwards it on your behalf to the issuing authority.

I hope this has been helpful but should you need any further assistance with your appeal please do get in touch.

Kind Regards,


This post has been edited by ZipCarDriver: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 13:46
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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:29
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Straight bat.

Reply telling them that you are afraid that they have been misinformed. In law, as the NTO was served on Zipcar only they may make reps, which is why you worded your draft as if from Zipcar.

The applicable legislation, which the authority may not amend, is regulation 4(1) of the Appeal Regulations (please see the NTO for the exact citation of the regulations) which provides:

Representations against notice to owner

4.—(1) The recipient may make representations against a notice to owner to the enforcement authority which served the notice on him.


In addition, because a NTO has been served, you, as driver, are no longer permitted to make representations against the PCN itself.

The matter rests between the authority and Zipcar and you have no standing to interfere in this process.

Please contact you if you may be of any further assistance.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:35
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I'm just worried about timing.
While all this to and fro is going on, clock has not only ticked but expired.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:45
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Nothing the OP can do until Zipcar draw a line under this part. IMO, tempting as it might be the OP should play matters correctly one step at a time.

Zipcar might get the CC, not the OP. Ultimately, the OP may have to go through their credit card company/bank to recover charges or take action direct againat Zipcar.

But if I were the OP, I wouldn't anticipate this, just play a straight bat and to me this means staying 4-square within the procedure until it's exhausted.

Ultimately the principle of mitigation s going to reappear and at present Zipcar are failing in their duty due to their (evidenced) ignorance of procedures.

National car hire company with apparently no clue as to correct procedures regarding car parking regulations. Not the best advert. What next, DHL fail to deliver cars and branches have to close?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:49
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:45) *
just play a straight bat



Keep yore bat strate boy and all will be all right in life as in criket.
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ZipCarDriver
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 18:32
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Richochet smile.gif It's gone back.
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ZipCarDriver
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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Received the following back from ZipCar. Not quite sure where to go from here.

QUOTE
Dear [],

Thank you for your email.

We are aware that at this stage only us, Zipcar, can submit an appeal against PCN [] since we are the registered keeper of the vehicle.

However, the appeal must be written by yourself and must be addressed to the issuing authority directly. On the cover letter we send alongside your appeal it is stated that we as the registered keeper of the vehicle in question are submitting an appeal on behalf of the at fault driver for the contravention.

This is the standard procedure we have when we submit any appeal on behalf of a Zipcar member.

Therefore we kindly request that you send us your appeal directed to the issuing authority and not write this as if you are the registered keeper of the vehicle.

We look forward to receiving this.

Kind Regards

Zipcar Operations Support
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ZipCarDriver
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 18:32
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Hey - Just hoping someone might have some ideas on the next best steps on the above? smile.gif

I imagine, something similar to the previous would be appropriate?

"Thanks, I understand this may be Zipcar's standard procedure, however as per my previous email because an NTO has been served, I, as driver, are no longer permitted to make representations against the PCN."

Much Appreciated!
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4101
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 19:03
Post #60


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Group: Members
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HCA seems to have all the answers on this. Why not PM him?
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