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[NIP Wizard] Big help needed, 2 tickets in 2 days for same camera
dsmith2611
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:15
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2019
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A30 Roseworthy (Eastbound), Camborne, Cornwall
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Company vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I received 2 tickets I two days for the same camera, 24 hours apart. The first day I didn't even see the camera, the second day I did and attempted to slow down but this would of caused an accident.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:08:11 +0000

So I got two tickets in 2 days from the same camera.

Incident 1 - 24/4/19, 81 in a 60
Incident 2 - 25/4/19, 74 in a 60

I didn't notice the camera until the second day, at this point it is worth pointing out that I had 6 points on my licence. The NIP went to my employer who filled in my details and the forms then came to me. During this time 3 points were removed from my licence.

I asked the police to rescind one of the tickets based on the fact I didn't have a chance to correct my behaviour, they have declined and offered two conditional fixed penalties. I have been told that the points will be added from the date of the offence therefore I will be at risk of totting up.

I guess I am looking for some advice as to whether I could push the police again to try and cancel or shall I attempt court and plead mitigating issues should I be banned? (again I am the only person in the house to drive, I could lose my job as I travel al over the country)

Thanks,
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post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:15
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:24
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74 in a 60 should have got an offer of a speed awareness course, or have you already done one in the last 3 years?

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The Rookie
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:35
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The Police are under no obligation to cancel a ticket under the circumstances, sometimes they will, sometimes they won’t.

Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.

You plead exceptional hardship in order to try and avoid a totting ban, mitigation based on the individual offences is irrelevant.


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dsmith2611
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:42
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:24) *
74 in a 60 should have got an offer of a speed awareness course, or have you already done one in the last 3 years?


Apologies, already done one

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:35) *
The Police are under no obligation to cancel a ticket under the circumstances, sometimes they will, sometimes they won’t.

Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.

You plead exceptional hardship in order to try and avoid a totting ban, mitigation based on the individual offences is irrelevant.



At the time of the offence I had 6 points, adding these two offences takes me to 12 however in-between receiving the NIP 3 points were removed. I have been informed the points are added from the date of the offence so I would fall under the totting up process.

I didn't allude to the police exceptional hardship when I requested one of the tickets be rescinded, I simply asked based on the circumstance that I didn't have the chance to correct my behaviour.

At this point I now have two conditional offers but concerned should I return and pay then I will end up in the totting up process. I guess I need to know is that the case and can I attempt to contact the police again with any other reason to cancel one of them
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The Rookie
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:50
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QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:42) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:35) *

Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.

You plead exceptional hardship in order to try and avoid a totting ban, mitigation based on the individual offences is irrelevant.



At the time of the offence I had 6 points, adding these two offences takes me to 12 however in-between receiving the NIP 3 points were removed. I have been informed the points are added from the date of the offence so I would fall under the totting up process.

I think you need to read what I wrote again, points get removed from your licence after FOUR years, and count for totting for THREE, so if they have been removed they didn’t count towards totting at the time of the offence. Or have you made the common mistake and believed that ‘no longer counts for totting’=removed?


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Jlc
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:52
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The Exceptional Hardship mentioned is a court process. It is unlikely the Police will change their mind.

It seems you will tot. How the points were accumulated are irrelevant.

The impact on others carries more weight. Losing a job, in itself, isn’t necessarily truly exceptional.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:53


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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dsmith2611
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:56
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:42) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 20:35) *

Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.

You plead exceptional hardship in order to try and avoid a totting ban, mitigation based on the individual offences is irrelevant.



At the time of the offence I had 6 points, adding these two offences takes me to 12 however in-between receiving the NIP 3 points were removed. I have been informed the points are added from the date of the offence so I would fall under the totting up process.

I think you need to read what I wrote again, points get removed from your licence after FOUR years, and count for totting for THREE, so if they have been removed they didn’t count towards totting at the time of the offence. Or have you made the common mistake and believed that ‘no longer counts for totting’=removed?


Apologies, they haven’t been removed. It is 3 years since the offence therefore should anyone do a licence check it will show as 3 points. Obviously at the date of the offence I had 6 so was told that even though 3 have subsequently gone I am still in danger of totting up
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NewJudge
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:13
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You could always try simply accepting the two offers and hope they don't realise you are a "totter" (unlikely). Normally you would not get an offer of a fixed penalty if it takes you to twelve or more points. I imagine that the offences only being a day apart played a part in that.

You should prepare for a court hearing to argue Exceptional Hardship. What hardship will you or others suffer if you are disqualified ("exceptional" being over and above what anybody who needs to drive to be able to get to or do their job would suffer)?
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The Rookie
post Sat, 29 Jun 2019 - 05:59
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Apologies, they haven’t been removed. It is 3 years since the offence therefore should anyone do a licence check it will show as 3 points. Obviously at the date of the offence I had 6 so was told that even though 3 have subsequently gone I am still in danger of totting up
[/quote]
If they are less than four years old they will still appear on a licence check and you have six.


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southpaw82
post Sat, 29 Jun 2019 - 20:13
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:35) *
Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.


I would hazard a guess that you were the only one apparently confused by that post.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:50) *
I think you need to read what I wrote again, points get removed from your licence after FOUR years, and count for totting for THREE, so if they have been removed they didn’t count towards totting at the time of the offence. Or have you made the common mistake and believed that ‘no longer counts for totting’=removed?

I would guess that’s exactly what the OP did. Wouldn’t take much to simply ask for clarification, if any were needed, would it?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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dsmith2611
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 07:34
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 29 Jun 2019 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:35) *
Your post is confusing, if the points have been removed from your licence they were four years old and didn’t count towards totting (3 years) anyway? It’s offences in 3 years based on offence date that matter.


I would hazard a guess that you were the only one apparently confused by that post.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 21:50) *
I think you need to read what I wrote again, points get removed from your licence after FOUR years, and count for totting for THREE, so if they have been removed they didn’t count towards totting at the time of the offence. Or have you made the common mistake and believed that ‘no longer counts for totting’=removed?

I would guess that’s exactly what the OP did. Wouldn’t take much to simply ask for clarification, if any were needed, would it?


I have just returned and paid the 2 speeding tickets, I assume its now a waiting game to see if they spot that I had 6 points at the time of the offences (now down to 3 points). Do the police have a timeframe to come back to me?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 07:46
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They have to commence court proceedings within 6 months of the alleged offence by raising a requisition, that can then take a short time to serve on you.

They will notice.

Just to confirm, you have sent your licence in as well?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 07:48


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dsmith2611
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 08:06
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 08:46) *
They have to commence court proceedings within 6 months of the alleged offence by raising a requisition, that can then take a short time to serve on you.

They will notice.

Just to confirm, you have sent your licence in as well?



Yeah I have paid this morning and will post today, so frustrating. I’ll await the letter and then start to prep, would you advise getting legal representation for the hearing or build the case yourself?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 09:14
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Personally I would do it myself
1/ You (not he) know all the facts to start with
2/ You will need to be here anyway (in case of questions from the bench where a solicitor may not know your answer)
3/ We can help with the arguments, what is relevant or what is not
4/ £300-400 pays for a lot of travel if it doesn't work out.

However if you don't feel confident you can put the arguments across coherently then it may be better to engage one.


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dsmith2611
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 19:17
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Ok so quick update, 3 points were added to my licence (giving me 6 in total) and the other ticket was sent back saying should these be added I will be at risk of totting up. They state that the police will be in touch and my fine paid will be returned accordingly. I guess I have a question;

Would they not just add the 3 points then send a court summons? Is this the usual course of action?
Could the police still cancel the ticket?
Is it guaranteed to be a court summons at this stage?

Thanks


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 10:14) *
Personally I would do it myself
1/ You (not he) know all the facts to start with
2/ You will need to be here anyway (in case of questions from the bench where a solicitor may not know your answer)
3/ We can help with the arguments, what is relevant or what is not
4/ £300-400 pays for a lot of travel if it doesn't work out.

However if you don't feel confident you can put the arguments across coherently then it may be better to engage one.

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NewJudge
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:08
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QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:17) *
Ok so quick update, 3 points were added to my licence (giving me 6 in total)

You still seem to be spreading confusion about this. You said earlier that you had six active points at the time of these offences. It is the date of the offences that are used to calculate whether you are subject to totting up or not. From what you said earlier you now have nine points.

QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:17) *
Would they not just add the 3 points then send a court summons? Is this the usual course of action?

The police can only add points by way of a fixed penalty. Because you are a totter they cannot do so.

Could the police still cancel the ticket?

Why should they? They have decided to take action. That would normally be a fixed penalty but because you are a totter the matter must go to court.

Is it guaranteed to be a court summons at this stage?

I would say so (or, more likely a "Single Justice Procedure Notice").

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dsmith2611
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:47
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Ok for clarity at the time of the offence I had 6 points, 3 were then taken off at the 3 year anniversary one month after being caught a further twice. I returned the conditional offers and paid both, 3 further points were added and one was returned so when I do a licence check on the DVLA website it shows 6.

Thanks for clarity on the other questions, how long would I usually wait before hearing about the summons / single JPN?

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:17) *
Ok so quick update, 3 points were added to my licence (giving me 6 in total)

You still seem to be spreading confusion about this. You said earlier that you had six active points at the time of these offences. It is the date of the offences that are used to calculate whether you are subject to totting up or not. From what you said earlier you now have nine points.

QUOTE (dsmith2611 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 20:17) *
Would they not just add the 3 points then send a court summons? Is this the usual course of action?

The police can only add points by way of a fixed penalty. Because you are a totter they cannot do so.

Could the police still cancel the ticket?

Why should they? They have decided to take action. That would normally be a fixed penalty but because you are a totter the matter must go to court.

Is it guaranteed to be a court summons at this stage?

I would say so (or, more likely a "Single Justice Procedure Notice").


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The Rookie
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:04
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DVLA Should show you on nine points as they only come off the licence after 4 years, if it shows 6 it suggests the next three haven’t yet been added.

Time wise
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 08:46) *
They have to commence court proceedings within 6 months of the alleged offence by raising a requisition, that can then take a short time to serve on you



--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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dsmith2611
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:47
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It shows 6 as valid, 3 are visible but expired in May. I can send a screen shot if required.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:04) *
DVLA Should show you on nine points as they only come off the licence after 4 years, if it shows 6 it suggests the next three haven’t yet been added.

Time wise
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 08:46) *
They have to commence court proceedings within 6 months of the alleged offence by raising a requisition, that can then take a short time to serve on you


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dsmith2611
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 06:31
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@The Rookie @NewJudge

See attached screen dump of licence showing 6 points and also letter regarding totting up process. I guess its just a waiting game now....

This post has been edited by dsmith2611: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 06:33
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