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Potentially caught holding my phone
JustNeedGoodAdvi...
post Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 21:32
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Hi All,

Think I was caught today using a mobile phone while driving by a passenger in another car while in my work van...The passenger was definatly recording me while driving past. The phone wasn't to my ear I was just looking at it.

I feel S*** enough so don't need a telling off thank you very much.

I got a feeling they will send the footage to the police.

Since the van is registered to my work how long does the police have to issue a NIP if the footage was sent to them. Does the police still have to issue it within 14days ?
£200 fine and 6 points ?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 22:06
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No NIP is required for that offence, so no 14 day period. They would need to identify the driver, usually by means of a s 172 notice, which may or may not have an NIP attached to it.


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NewJudge
post Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 23:01
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And after you've named yourself they may offer you a fixed penalty. Before you accept it have a read of this:

http://www.centralchambers.co.uk/dpp-v-ram...g-it-turns-out/

It's a bit lengthy but it explains that, as things stand, the police have to prove that you were using your phone for "interactive communication." The government is working on closing the loophole but that has not been done yet. The police may have difficulty proving what you were dong with your phone if you were simply witnessed holding it.
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JustNeedGoodAdvi...
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 01:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 22:06) *
No NIP is required for that offence, so no 14 day period. They would need to identify the driver, usually by means of a s 172 notice, which may or may not have an NIP attached to it.



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 23:01) *
And after you've named yourself they may offer you a fixed penalty. Before you accept it have a read of this:

http://www.centralchambers.co.uk/dpp-v-ram...g-it-turns-out/

It's a bit lengthy but it explains that, as things stand, the police have to prove that you were using your phone for "interactive communication." The government is working on closing the loophole but that has not been done yet. The police may have difficulty proving what you were dong with your phone if you were simply witnessed holding it.



Isn't a s172 a NIP ?

I thought merely having your phone in your hand is a offence ?
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Logician
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 02:12
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QUOTE (JustNeedGoodAdvice @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 02:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 22:06) *
No NIP is required for that offence, so no 14 day period. They would need to identify the driver, usually by means of a s 172 notice, which may or may not have an NIP attached to it.



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 10 Nov 2020 - 23:01) *
And after you've named yourself they may offer you a fixed penalty. Before you accept it have a read of this:

http://www.centralchambers.co.uk/dpp-v-ram...g-it-turns-out/

It's a bit lengthy but it explains that, as things stand, the police have to prove that you were using your phone for "interactive communication." The government is working on closing the loophole but that has not been done yet. The police may have difficulty proving what you were dong with your phone if you were simply witnessed holding it.



Isn't a s172 a NIP ?

I thought merely having your phone in your hand is a offence ?


No, a s.172 notice requires information about the driver, a NIP is a warning he may be prosecuted, they are usually part of the same actual document but have two separate functions.
As the law stands at the moment the prosecution have to prove that the accused was using an interactive communication device, this follows fairly recent case law. Many people have been convicted in the past when merely holding a phone. The government intend to change the law to revert to that situation.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 07:29
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QUOTE (JustNeedGoodAdvice @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 01:11) *
Isn't a s172 a NIP ?

I thought merely having your phone in your hand is a offence ?

A NIP is issued to comply with the requirements of S1 of the Road traffic offenders act - a warning to motorists they may be prosecuted (where the alleged offence requires it).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1

Although any 'notice' can notify of an intention to prosecute (in plain English sense), only the one to the registered keeper or driver satisfies S1 RTOA.

An S172 notice is a requirement (placed on anyone they send it to) to identify (or provide information that may help identify) a driver at the time of an alleged offence
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172

So Unlike the NIP this is the same legal requirement to anyone further down 'the chain' of named keepers/drivers.


Although usually merged and sent on one piece of paper they are two very different things, unless of course it's roadside stop where the officer will do the identifying and issue a warning at the scene, usually verbally.

Merely holding a phone is certainly not an offence, Jimmy Carr was famously acquitted for using it as a dictaphone, and in a recent case a motorist using it as a camera was also acquitted (at appeal).


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Irksome
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 19:11
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Whilst the underlying offence may or may not be subject to the 6 month limit for prosecution, my brief skim read of S172 doesn't seem to set any limit for the request? Surely that's absurd - who was driving my car 18 months ago on Friday 13th I would have NO idea?


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speedfighter23
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 21:35
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So as things stand if I text on my phone and make it look like I am typing in coordinates for the GPS and the prosecution have to prove that I was texting and not changing my GPS? Those pics of you holding your phone; it would be hard to prove you are texting unless the resolution is really really good. Do people even hold the phone to talk much with pretty much every car having bluetooth now? I see it now and then on the road, mainly van drivers with older model vans that may not have bluetooth default.

TBH, I can't see the new law changing things much, if you just keep your phone on a stand/in the cup holder and tap on it when driving even the new law can't say anything unless you are so distracted that you swerve around and cause nuisance/police car sees you driving erratically and are done for careless driving.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 21:36


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DancingDad
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:17
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 21:35) *
....... Do people even hold the phone to talk much with pretty much every car having bluetooth now? I see it now and then on the road, mainly van drivers with older model vans that may not have bluetooth default........

I seem to see many holding the phone in front of them while gobbing off ten to the dozen.
Not sure if that is facetime, zoom meeting or preparing their next youtube video.
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speedfighter23
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35
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Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense, but I do dislike holding my phone when driving, even when I drive in countries where I'm not gonna get in trouble (e.g. USA, GR I can't get any points or lose my licence, just pay a small fine).

If people just keep their phone in one place you can touch it while driving without getting in trouble. If I keep it still in my cupholder and tap on it to change, music, directions, make a facetime call, no one will be the wiser. I can even slant the phone so I can do a Facetime call with the phone camera pointing at me while driving without having to hold the phone and the person on the other end gets a video of me driving!

I'm sure in the near future we will have car webcams so you can do your video conferences in the car without having to do the phone cupholder thing.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:38


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DancingDad
post Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 23:17
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
........
I'm sure in the near future we will have car webcams so you can do your video conferences in the car without having to do the phone cupholder thing.

Not sold for that but are already available
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7mm-6LED-USB-End...DoAAOSw08Fe6tmp

Not preaching but I am one who wonders "why?"
TBH I only use my phone in need and all my cars have bluetooth so phone lives in trouser pocket and never gets touched.
But many seem to be unable to live without being on their phone at all times...WTF do they find to talk about?
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The Slithy Tove
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 07:01
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh

...

I'm sure in the near future we will have car webcams so you can do your video conferences in the car without having to do the phone cupholder thing.

I think you answered your own question. If you think that participating in a video conference while driving is safe, then it's no wonder you also think the penalties for doing such things is too steep.

Let's save the video conference for when we have driverless cars (a whole different debate).
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Slapdash
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 08:02
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense, but I do dislike holding my phone when driving, even when I drive in countries where I'm not gonna get in trouble (e.g. USA, GR I can't get any points or lose my licence, just pay a small fine).

If people just keep their phone in one place you can touch it while driving without getting in trouble. If I keep it still in my cupholder and tap on it to change, music, directions, make a facetime call, no one will be the wiser. I can even slant the phone so I can do a Facetime call with the phone camera pointing at me while driving without having to hold the phone and the person on the other end gets a video of me driving!

I'm sure in the near future we will have car webcams so you can do your video conferences in the car without having to do the phone cupholder thing.


If it's ok would you mind publishing your itinerary. I just want to make sure I am never anywhere near.

(Aftermarket in car video conferencing is available now and Tesla also plan to introduce it soon.)
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 09:38
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense,

On the basis that its been shown to be more dangerous than borderline drink driving, 6 points sounds pretty generous...

That said using Apple Car play has been shown to be even more dangerous.



--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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mickR
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:07
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense, but I do dislike holding my phone when driving,

nope, 6 points isnt enough for you.

QUOTE
I can even slant the phone so I can do a Facetime call with the phone camera pointing at me while driving without having to hold the phone and the person on the other end gets a video of me driving!

Oh i see, youre having a wind up rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 08:02) *
If it's ok would you mind publishing your itinerary. I just want to make sure I am never anywhere near.


Me to.
Speaking as someone who knows someone killed in a multiple death RTA by a distracted driver. The legislation and punishment goes no where near far enough!!
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speedfighter23
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:36
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QUOTE (mickR @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense, but I do dislike holding my phone when driving,

nope, 6 points isnt enough for you.

QUOTE
I can even slant the phone so I can do a Facetime call with the phone camera pointing at me while driving without having to hold the phone and the person on the other end gets a video of me driving!

Oh i see, youre having a wind up rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 08:02) *
If it's ok would you mind publishing your itinerary. I just want to make sure I am never anywhere near.


Me to.
Speaking as someone who knows someone killed in a multiple death RTA by a distracted driver. The legislation and punishment goes no where near far enough!!


Yes I am sure you can kill a motorist when stopped at a Red Light in Central London = )


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 23:17) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
........
I'm sure in the near future we will have car webcams so you can do your video conferences in the car without having to do the phone cupholder thing.

Not sold for that but are already available
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7mm-6LED-USB-End...DoAAOSw08Fe6tmp

Not preaching but I am one who wonders "why?"
TBH I only use my phone in need and all my cars have bluetooth so phone lives in trouser pocket and never gets touched.
But many seem to be unable to live without being on their phone at all times...WTF do they find to talk about?


Can't do that, I use my phone as a GPS so it needs to be out. Also for music as well, in case I need to change from Apple Music to Spotify; can't do that.
On top of that, I need to charge my phone, so needs to be out charging.
And finally at high speed corners my phone would simply fall out of my pockets = )

QUOTE (mickR @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense, but I do dislike holding my phone when driving,

nope, 6 points isnt enough for you.

QUOTE
I can even slant the phone so I can do a Facetime call with the phone camera pointing at me while driving without having to hold the phone and the person on the other end gets a video of me driving!

Oh i see, youre having a wind up rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 08:02) *
If it's ok would you mind publishing your itinerary. I just want to make sure I am never anywhere near.


Me to.
Speaking as someone who knows someone killed in a multiple death RTA by a distracted driver. The legislation and punishment goes no where near far enough!!


Joking aside, what I said is touching your phone while it is in one place is legal, and even a video call is legal provided it is not distracting you or you are not holding the phone. if the phone is stationary and you are looking ahead, what is the issue?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 11 Nov 2020 - 22:35) *
Fair enough. TBH i find 6 points too harsh, 3 makes more sense,

On the basis that its been shown to be more dangerous than borderline drink driving, 6 points sounds pretty generous...

That said using Apple Car play has been shown to be even more dangerous.


Yes agreed, Apple Car Play is terribly distracting, it is worse than even using a phone! Most new rental cars have it so I've used it quite a bit, although its so hard to configure when driving I am mainly better off just using my phone for GPS/Music/Phone while it is in my cupholder.

All over the West end everyday, and mind you I am a very competent driver with no issues with Traffic Police, motorway awareness course not withstanding and a French speeding ticket.
I would never get done for mobile phone driving because I never actually hold my mobile phone when the engine is turned on, if I want to lift my mobile out of my cupholder I will park the car then do it.

Video conferencing with driving is the exact same thing as a car journalist being filmed in Top Gear driving their car on the roads, if the camera is static and in one place people just get a view of you driving during the conference call!

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:32


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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:51
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Have Apple car play in my car, only ever use it for Google Maps (as I can chose my route better than the OE satnag - which only offers a default choice of 1 route), but I pre-select the route and just fire up car play and set route active before I set off.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 11:40
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:36) *
..........
Video conferencing with driving is the exact same thing as a car journalist being filmed in Top Gear driving their car on the roads, if the camera is static and in one place people just get a view of you driving during the conference call!

Except Top Gear uses a camera to film the inane chatter of the presenter, ie legal
While a zoom conference potentially has a video screen which is not presenting anything to do with the car or driving in view of the driver.... which isn't.
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speedfighter23
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 13:41
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 11:40) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:36) *
..........
Video conferencing with driving is the exact same thing as a car journalist being filmed in Top Gear driving their car on the roads, if the camera is static and in one place people just get a view of you driving during the conference call!

Except Top Gear uses a camera to film the inane chatter of the presenter, ie legal
While a zoom conference potentially has a video screen which is not presenting anything to do with the car or driving in view of the driver.... which isn't.


"Potentially"
Law has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt!


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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 15:29
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 13:41) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 11:40) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Thu, 12 Nov 2020 - 10:36) *
..........
Video conferencing with driving is the exact same thing as a car journalist being filmed in Top Gear driving their car on the roads, if the camera is static and in one place people just get a view of you driving during the conference call!

Except Top Gear uses a camera to film the inane chatter of the presenter, ie legal
While a zoom conference potentially has a video screen which is not presenting anything to do with the car or driving in view of the driver.... which isn't.


"Potentially"
Law has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt!

I used the word potentially in respect of it depends where the screen is.
If it is in view of the driver and displaying a zoom conference, it is illegal, simple as that.
Whether the law could take action and win is another discussion, first they have to see it.
If they do, then it is simply whether or not the court accepts the cop's account as credible or the driver who is denying.
No different to many road traffic offences
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