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Been Caught - Just require some clarification!, Threads merged x4
bretty1984
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 16:27
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Hi all,

New member here, never had to call on the help of this forum before but in 18 years of motoring, I have just got my first NIP through the post.

Ok, I have been caught, there is no wriggling out of it but I want to find out the clarification of the speed limit and how clear it is.

So, the road I got caught on, is a road that runs past the entrance to my estate.

I got caught doing 35 in a 20, so I am likely to get hit hard. However, I have always believed the road to be a 30 road (I still would have been speeding if that was the case). The road used to be a 30 road but over the past few years, they have introduced speed bumps. I still thought it was 30.

Anyhow, when I found out what I had done, I took a drive along the road to look for signs of proof. There will be many people who won't believe me when I say it but I had never noticed the 20mph painted signs on the road.

So the road is approx 1km long. There are signs at either end that state it is a 20 zone. I had never seen these before either.

At one end of the road, the one sign on one side of road is sort of partially covered by a large hedge when approaching. It is still slightly visible but it is not standing alone and in plain sight if that makes sense. The other sign is angled slightly away, as though it is to face drivers turning onto it from the other direction.

At the other end, the signs are slightly clearer but they are almost upon you when you turn into the road. Anyhow, there is no getting out of that. what amazed me was that there no repeater signs anywhere along this road. Only the painted roundels in a couple of areas. I know for a fact, if there were actual repeater signs, then I would have seen them.

Now, as I said, my housing estate exits onto this road via a T Junction, at the end of the road was a 20mph roundel - i had never seen this until I started looking for it, but then I noticed it had completely worn away, it is practically non-existent. The roundel as you enter our estate is clearly painted, again, I have never seen this. I swear I don't drive with my eyes closed, it is just that the entire area is busy with traffic and pedestrians and some horrible blind bends, that your eyes are very rarely on the road immediately infront of you.

So, what I am trying to find out, if anyone knows is whether every road that joins onto the 20mph zone should have some kind of marking as such? My guess is that the roundel entering our estate states that it is 20 and so, the one that is worn away when you leave the estate is irrelevant as it would indicate that if there are no other speed signs that the speed remains 20mph. However, it is really bugging me. Why has it worn away, why hasn't it been maintained? Should it be maintained?

I am not trying to wriggle out of it. I just need answers myself more than anything else as it is really bugging me.

My first ticket in 18 years of motoring. I am gutted.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
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post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 16:27
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 15:07
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If they are outgoings that are business attributable, then they would count, as they reduce your profit.
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bretty1984
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 06:21
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I phoned the helpline and the bloke on the phone had no idea what to do so I told him I would average out the earnings for the 7 months and he said ummmm yeah ok
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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 07:03
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Court staff are not meant (allowed) to give legal advice, so the call was never going to help in that respect.


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bretty1984
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:24
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 07:03) *
Court staff are not meant (allowed) to give legal advice, so the call was never going to help in that respect.


don't worry, it was the helpline number on the procedure. He sounded dutch and was pretty clueless. It clearly states on the form that the staff at the call centre are not police or court staff. I honestly expected him to give me a straight up answer as they must have this query all of the time......no suprise there really though that our system is pretty clueless.

The more I think about the whole system, the more I think that it is a farce. By all means prosecute someone for speeding but why should people be fined based on their earnings?

Whether someone earns £20,000 a year or £100,000 and gets caught doing 35 in a 20, it is still the same offence however you look at it and both should receive the same penalty. so why should one be fined more than the other. laugh.gif
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Fredd
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:37
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QUOTE (bretty1984 @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:24) *
Whether someone earns £20,000 a year or £100,000 and gets caught doing 35 in a 20, it is still the same offence however you look at it and both should receive the same penalty. so why should one be fined more than the other. laugh.gif

It's obvious really, for Bill Gates £200 would be no punishment whatsoever, for a supermarket checkout operator it would hurt badly. However that's a (much repeated) discussion for the Flame Pit or maybe Government Policy section, not here in the Speeding section.


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bretty1984
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:11
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I have just looked at the forms again. This is probably a simple answer but it asks me for the vehicle registration number which I obviously know then underneath it is asking whether I am the registered owner. I was at the time of the offence but I have since sold the car. Do I tick yes or no for this section?

It is the wording of the question that gets me "are you the registered owner of the vehicle"

Right now, I am not. Back then I was.....is it a yes or a no answer?
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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:56
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You were never the registered owner I can guarantee that. There not being a register of owners. The person who wrote the form clearly being an idiot.

My understanding of this is that the reason for the question is that someone with a claimed low income driving a very expensive car may be assessed differently for the fine.


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Fredd
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 17:01
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QUOTE (bretty1984 @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:11) *
Right now, I am not. Back then I was.....is it a yes or a no answer?

Pedantry aside, they're asking whether you were at the time. However there's no reason why you have to simply tick yes or no if you feel you need to add a fuller explanation - the questions on the form are for their convenience, not a legally defined requirement.


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bretty1984
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 18:41
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:56) *
You were never the registered owner I can guarantee that. There not being a register of owners. The person who wrote the form clearly being an idiot.

My understanding of this is that the reason for the question is that someone with a claimed low income driving a very expensive car may be assessed differently for the fine.


This is what I said yesterday, as in the form looks really amateurish to be honest.

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by the fact that you can guarantee that i was never the registered owner? I assumed that meant that I was the registered owner with the DVLA. Sorry if I am missing something..


At the top of the form it says it is an offence to give false or misleading information. You may be fined up to £2,500 or sent to prison for three month or both.

Now, of course, I was not being pedantic when I was saying I wasn't sure what to answer. If I put yes, then any further info that might come of this might send them down the wrong path, as in the new owners. If I say no, will that then make them ask other questions....perhaps I am looking into this too much.

Should I tick yes or no or put a comment on the form explaining that I was unsure what the right answer is and leave it blank? If I was writing the questions I would have worded it as "Are you/Were you the registered owner of the vehicle"

Sorry, any advice would be really appreciated, I don't want them coming back saying I gave misleading information.


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666
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 18:58
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QUOTE (bretty1984 @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:56) *
You were never the registered owner I can guarantee that. There not being a register of owners. The person who wrote the form clearly being an idiot.

My understanding of this is that the reason for the question is that someone with a claimed low income driving a very expensive car may be assessed differently for the fine.


This is what I said yesterday, as in the form looks really amateurish to be honest.

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by the fact that you can guarantee that i was never the registered owner? I assumed that meant that I was the registered owner with the DVLA. Sorry if I am missing something..


At the top of the form it says it is an offence to give false or misleading information. You may be fined up to £2,500 or sent to prison for three month or both.

Now, of course, I was not being pedantic when I was saying I wasn't sure what to answer. If I put yes, then any further info that might come of this might send them down the wrong path, as in the new owners. If I say no, will that then make them ask other questions....perhaps I am looking into this too much.

Should I tick yes or no or put a comment on the form explaining that I was unsure what the right answer is and leave it blank? If I was writing the questions I would have worded it as "Are you/Were you the registered owner of the vehicle"

Sorry, any advice would be really appreciated, I don't want them coming back saying I gave misleading information.

There is no register of owners, only of keepers. The wording of the form is sloppy. I would suggest you should write something to the effect “I was the registered keeper at the time of the alleged offence”.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 19:04
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As per my post you quoted, you can’t have been the registered owner as THERE IS NO REGISTER OF OWNERS, being the registered owner is therefore an impossibility despite our wonderful courts system thinking it may be.



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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Fredd
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 22:38
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QUOTE (bretty1984 @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 18:41) *
Now, of course, I was not being pedantic when I was saying I wasn't sure what to answer.

I wasn't suggesting you were being pedantic - rather that others who were rather unhelpfully alluding to the fact that the DVLA register records keepers, not owners, without explaining the difference to you, were being unhelpful.

Either tick yes, or leave it blank and write in an explanation of the change of ownership.


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bretty1984
post Sat, 22 Feb 2020 - 07:22
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 22:38) *
QUOTE (bretty1984 @ Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 18:41) *
Now, of course, I was not being pedantic when I was saying I wasn't sure what to answer.

I wasn't suggesting you were being pedantic - rather that others who were rather unhelpfully alluding to the fact that the DVLA register records keepers, not owners, without explaining the difference to you, were being unhelpful.

Either tick yes, or leave it blank and write in an explanation of the change of ownership.


No, I knew you were not calling me pedantic, I was just explaining that I was not being pedantic by not knowing what to put in there!

I think I will leave it blank will put an explanation there. Amazing how a form that carries such significance can be so poorly written. I was saying to my father-in-law that I thought the form looked like someone in school would knock up as part of a project. It looks like a form that you would use internally within an organisation.
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bretty1984
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 09:20
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Fine came through by email this morning - total of £473 and 4 points.

I would usually pay this all at once but I am self-employed and have lost a lot of business from this virus so I am going to email to see if there is any way that payments can be split up or anything like that. I need to to try and protect my savings at the moment.
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Logician
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 11:00
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You should be able to spread the payment, it may be quickest to phone and ask for the Fines Office.


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