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Marginal speeding - appeal against penalty
thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44
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I have just received a "Notice of Intended Prosecution" for travelling 38mph in a 30mph zone, which was caught by a temporary police camera. I would usually complete the paperwork and accept the subsequent fixed penalty notice but:

  • I already have six points and so this will take me to a total of nine within 18 months. I am naturally keen to avoid a totting up ban, which almost seems inevitable at my current rate of accruing points.
  • After reaching six points, I have been very careful to drive within the speed limit. This was a road I drive on often and had just (I don't know when but recently) changed from a 40mph to a 30mph zone. This change was actioned by removing the 40mph signs that were there before, which presumably had the effect of reinstating the national speed limit (i.e. 30mph on a road with street lights. There is a small sign at the end of the road (not a standard traffic sign, e.g. in a red circle) that indicates a change of speed limit but this is in amongst lots of other traffic signs at the exit from a large roundabout. My car GPS (which I use when in doubt about speed limits) still shows this as being a 40mph road. As far as I can tell, they changed the speed of this road and then sited a temporary speed camera there almost immediately afterwards. This seems disingenuous to me at best.


Although I clearly exceeded the speed limit, it feels to me as if I was much less culpable on this occasion than would usually be the case. I am tempted to ask to attend Court and seek a variation on the usual sentence, e.g. fine and 3-points. My concern is that I am sailing very close to a ban with 9 points and - despite trying very hard to drive within the speed limit - have shown that it is still possible to be caught out inadvertently. My main concern is incurring a high financial penalty in court. I am currently a very high earner (e.g. £7000-12,000/month after tax) but this is a temporary situation (I am working overtime flat out) and I'm not enthusiastic about being fined a proportion of my income, although that might still be preferable to reaching 9-points.

My questions to anyone who can help are:

  • What are the chances of magistrates waiving the penalty points under these circumstances?
  • If they declined to waive the points, might they still just revert to the original FPN terms or are they more likely to impose a higher financial penalty?
  • Does the financial penalty (as a proportion of earnings) include overtime and all incomes, or just the offender's main job?
  • How is income determined for offenders whose income varies massively, e.g. between £2,000 and £12,000 per month?
  • Is there a cap on what the magistrates can fine?
  • Are there any other disadvantages to taking this route rather than just accepting the FPN?
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post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44
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peterguk
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:51
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I'd accept the FPN.

You will be treated no differently to anyone else if you take it to court.

BTW, 38 in a 30 is almost 25% over the limit - hardly "marginal".


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thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:55
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Thanks. I don't know if there is a formal definition of "marginal" but it falls within the threshold for which a Speed Awareness Course can be offered for offences within a 30mph zone, i.e. 35-42mph.
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peterguk
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:00
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QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:55) *
Thanks. I don't know if there is a formal definition of "marginal" but it falls within the threshold for which a Speed Awareness Course can be offered for offences within a 30mph zone, i.e. 35-42mph.


Irrelevant to what will happen in court. You have no defence to the allegation and will be punished in court same as everyone else.


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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:14
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QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
[*]I already have six points and so this will take me to a total of nine within 18 months. I am naturally keen to avoid a totting up ban, which almost seems inevitable at my current rate of accruing points.

Don't take this the wrong way, but surely by being extra careful you could avoid getting any more points?

Anyway I agree with the others, if you are not eligible for a speed awareness course, you should accept the FPN. If you take it to court, the punishment will be more severe.


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Ocelot
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:18
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Was the offence in England or Wales, and have you done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years?
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thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:32
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In England. I have done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years, although I am clearly a slow learner...
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Jlc
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:59
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QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
What are the chances of magistrates waiving the penalty points under these circumstances?

Virtually zero. (Unless there is some issue with the TRO/Signs, as below)

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
If they declined to waive the points, might they still just revert to the original FPN terms or are they more likely to impose a higher financial penalty?

A fixed penalty equivalent sentence is an option but not under these circumstances.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
Does the financial penalty (as a proportion of earnings) include overtime and all incomes, or just the offender's main job?

All income.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
How is income determined for offenders whose income varies massively, e.g. between £2,000 and £12,000 per month?

An average for the year would seem sensible.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
Is there a cap on what the magistrates can fine?

Yes. (£1,000 before discounts or £2,500 on a motorway)

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
Are there any other disadvantages to taking this route rather than just accepting the FPN?

Yes, it will cost a lot more.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
As far as I can tell, they changed the speed of this road and then sited a temporary speed camera there almost immediately afterwards. This seems disingenuous to me at best.

It would be worth checking they've correctly updated the Traffic Regulation Order.

There is guidance about 'new' 30mph limits but if the signage (street lamps forming a restricted road) is correct then there's no defence.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
My car GPS (which I use when in doubt about speed limits) still shows this as being a 40mph road.

The Mk 1 eyeball is the best tool for limits. There would have been a 30mph terminal sign at the start of the limit, or if you started within it the lack of signs to the contrary will make it a 30mph by virtue of the (assumingly correctly spaced) streetlights.

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:55) *
Thanks. I don't know if there is a formal definition of "marginal" but it falls within the threshold for which a Speed Awareness Course can be offered for offences within a 30mph zone, i.e. 35-42mph.

Only that the Police do not prosecute until +10%+2mph of the limit. (This is the margin/threshold)

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
I'm not enthusiastic about being fined a proportion of my income, although that might still be preferable to reaching 9-points.

It's an often asked question whether the fine can be increased in lieu of points but unfortunately not. There are 'special reasons not to endorse' but that doesn't seem to apply here.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:59


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:04
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•What are the chances of magistrates waiving the penalty points under these circumstances?
Zero
•If they declined to waive the points, might they still just revert to the original FPN terms or are they more likely to impose a higher financial penalty?
No reason for them to sentence on FPN terms
•Does the financial penalty (as a proportion of earnings) include overtime and all incomes, or just the offender's main job?
All income
•How is income determined for offenders whose income varies massively, e.g. between £2,000 and £12,000 per month?
It would be usual to take an average over a period, say a year
•Is there a cap on what the magistrates can fine?
Yes, £1000 on ordinary roads, but for a high income first time offender the guideline is a maximum of £750, and a 33% discount for a guilty plea brings that down to £500. For that speed the guideline fine is 50% of net weekly income
•Are there any other disadvantages to taking this route rather than just accepting the FPN?
You will have to pay costs of £85

If the "small sign at the end of the road" is a square red change of speed limit sign, a standard sign, your case is much weaker. Your best bet may be to ask the police to exercise their discretion not to take enforcement action in view of the recent change of speed limit of which you were unaware and the fact that you were observing the previous limit.


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thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:06
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Thank you all. At least there appears to be a clear consensus. I like the idea of asking the Police to exercise their discretion in view of the recent change. I suspect that they won't buy this but there's nothing to lose and it will make me feel as if I pushed back a little. Otherwise, I will accept the FPN and tread carefully over the next 18 months.

This post has been edited by thepeer22: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:08
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Jlc
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:07
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:04) *
•Are there any other disadvantages to taking this route rather than just accepting the FPN?
You will have to pay costs of £85

And the surcharge... (10% of the fine, min £30)

QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:06) *
Thank you all. At least there appears to be a clear consensus. I will accept the FPN and tread carefully over the next 18 months.

It's worth checking the TRO. (The 40mph limit has to be 'revoked') It will allow you to find out how recent the limit changed too.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:08


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:25
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Is there an easy way to find a TRO that applies to a specific road? There are a lot of TROs for Oxfordshire (https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/authority_tro/?authority=Oxfordshire) - does it mean reading through all of them until I find the road I'm looking for (A40, North Way)?
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Logician
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:34
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QUOTE
And the surcharge... (10% of the fine, min £30)


Yes indeed.


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Colin_S
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:48
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QUOTE (thepeer22 @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 18:25) *
Is there an easy way to find a TRO that applies to a specific road? There are a lot of TROs for Oxfordshire (https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/authority_tro/?authority=Oxfordshire) - does it mean reading through all of them until I find the road I'm looking for (A40, North Way)?


Identify the exact location and maybe someone who knows their way round TRO's here will help find it for you.
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BaggieBoy
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:00
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I assume it's the section between Clutteslowe Roundabout and Wovercote Roundabout. I found this:

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/sites/de...IFI-100-002.pdf

Based on Streetview it seems the 30MPH limit was in place in May 2017 but not in 2015.
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Colin_S
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:05
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:00) *
I assume it's the section between Clutteslowe Roundabout and Wovercote Roundabout. I found this:

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/sites/de...IFI-100-002.pdf

Based on Streetview it seems the 30MPH limit was in place in May 2017 but not in 2015.


If it is that section it has been 30 for more than a couple of years - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7881624,-...3312!8i6656
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thepeer22
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:00) *
I assume it's the section between Clutteslowe Roundabout and Wovercote Roundabout. I found this:

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/sites/de...IFI-100-002.pdf

Based on Streetview it seems the 30MPH limit was in place in May 2017 but not in 2015.


Thanks. That TRO looks as if it was a temporary change in 2015 and I presume that something has happened before recently. It is the correct stretch of road. Excellent use of Streetview - that speed limit has clearly been in place longer than I thought. I'll look through the TROs in the six months before May 2017.

QUOTE (Colin_S @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:05) *
If it is that section it has been 30 for more than a couple of years - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7881624,-...3312!8i6656


That 30mph becomes 40mph just after the Cuttleslowe roundabout (see attached) on the stretch I was caught.




This post has been edited by thepeer22: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:14
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Colin_S
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:09
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Can you pinpoint exactly where the van was?
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 23:20
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QUOTE (Colin_S @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 19:05) *
If it is that section it has been 30 for more than a couple of years

There are a couple of those "new speed limit" red signs near me that have been in place for at least three years--maybe longer. Their presence apparently means only that they have not been removed...

--Churchmouse
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bill w
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 00:24
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 23:20) *
There are a couple of those "new speed limit" red signs near me that have been in place for at least three years--maybe longer. Their presence apparently means only that they have not been removed...

--Churchmouse


Unfortunately, I don't think the provision of those little red signs is mandatory.

All they did on a road I've used since 1975 was to remove the 40 signs HERE and a couple of repeaters further up the road (which were frequently obscured anyway).

I normally consider myself to be reasonably observant, but I've no idea how long I'd been breaking the speed limit before I realised; I often used the road on a daily basis in that direction, returning to Sheffield via a different route.
Fortunately I never got a ticket, but judging by the normal traffic speed at the time, I wasn't the only one who failed to notice the change.
It only dawned on me when I came in the opposite direction, for a bit of variety, spotted the terminal sign looked clean for a change, then realised it was a new one; I was a bit on edge for a couple of weeks when the postman arrived.
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