Parking ticket received, machines not working. |
Parking ticket received, machines not working. |
Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 12:24
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
Hiya,
I received a ticket at the beginning of September for parking without a valid pay and display ticket. The machine went working and there was a pay by phone option, however I didn’t haven’t phone. My 3 year old was starting a new school and I was taking her for the first time to start settling, I also had my 7month old son with me. The next machine was too far for me to walk with both kids, as I suffer from severe Rgeumatoid arthritis. I appealed the initial PCN which was rejected, and am now waiting for the letter for me to appeal to the adjudicator. It doesn’t help that I had a hire car company at the time so have had to already pay out due to administration fees. The following day my husband took my daughter for settling and he walked the whole road, the side roads and not 1 machine was working. He walked an unreasonable distance to get a ticket to display. I called the council to let them know about their machines to which I was told all the machines around Newham have the same problem. I asked why people are given tickets if the council are aware of this problem, to which she said there is an alternative which is to pay by phone or to park elsewhere. I had intentions to pay for my ticket, I ensured I had cash and change on me to do this, but unfortunately my phone was left behind and rushing with two young kids. Currently I am being asked to pay the full amount of £135.00 , and really do not want to pay if I have a case to fight this . |
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Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 12:24
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 11:01
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,261 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Try re-reading what has been put, the reason they paid was due to their own failure to transfer liability in the prescribed manner, a process they (as an allegedly reputable and large hire company) should be fully conversant with. You cannot be held liable for their own failings, additionally its something they have charged you an admin fee to do and have failed to fulfill that obligation you paid for. Get back onto them, know what you are complaining about and lean on them hard, there is most certainly something they can do!
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 11:45
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
You've been stitched by Enterprise.
And as such I would be getting everything I could to argue the toss with them. As MMV says, get a copy of the council rejection of the hire ground. It may be worth phoning the council for this. Get all you can from Enterprise, copy of NTO, their challenge to council and council NOR. The latter may allow you to appeal to adjudicators with the authority that Enterprise have given but will likely be an uphill battle as it has been paid. This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 11:46 |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:56
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
Good afternoon,
As previously explained, we would have already made payment for this penalty charge notice. The case will be closed due to payment, but the letter of authority will still allow you to appeal this fine. If the fine is cancelled, Enterprise will receive a refund. If you are charged by Enterprise before that time, we will issue a refund once you forward your notice of acceptance to us. Kind regards |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:59
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
With respect, we're in danger of mixing contract law with parking regs.
'In a legal sense, if the Council has rejected Enterprise's transfer of liability documents, this means Enterprise have no authority to ask you to pay the PCN. They have to have proper documentation to do this under The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000.' Sorry, MMV, but this is incorrect. Whether an uninformed person in the council, whether with or without sufficient evidence from Enterprise, rejected grounds for hiring agreement does not affect Enterprise's position vis a vis the hirer. Enterprise's authority to charge is their contract conditions, not the decision of a council officer. Whether Enterprise's action is lawful is another matter. OP, you received a PCN and submitted a challenge which was rejected. You decided to not pay the discount as a direct consequence of which the keeper was sent a NTO ( which you knew would occur). You also knew your contract conditions. IMO, the legal issue is, as always, their obligation to take reasonable steps in the circumstances to mitigate their losses. This includes making reps to transfer liability to the hirer because the NTO did not have a discount option. Which they did. These were rejected. They charged your account (for how much? Was the discount re-offered? Who knows?) under the mandate provided for in your contract. Were they entitled to do so? Who knows, we haven't seen the evidence. What is the evidence? Their reps and the authority's rejection. I suggest you get them. OP, forget any direct contact with tne council, you are out of the equation AS ARE PARKING REGS, at least for the moment. This is a contract issue! |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:15
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
I have asked enterprise for both NTO AND NOR
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:25
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:38
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
This is a joke, enterprise are saying they have nothing to provide me with except the penalty charge. She said the transfer of liability and representation was a mail out and they don’t have a copy of that, and they also do not have a copy of the notice of rejection.
I kind of lost it and said well you haveno evodence to prove you have actually done anything you are saying you have. I have been charged an admin fee , for which you cannot provide evidence that you actually conducted . I said I wish to take this are further and if you have no evidence to prove you did your bit at your end you have no case to stand for. She said she spoke to the council and they have said they didn’t see the transfer of liability and that although the charge has escalated they won’t charge £195 and will keep it at £130. I am currently waiting to speak to somebody senior . |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:51
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
No luck. They have sent me the transfer of liability document but no representation, and they will be asking council for the notice of rejection again as they have lost it.
They also said they spoke to the council, who have said I am able to appeal with letter of authority and if the appeal is upgeld they will refund the charges. |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Seems as if your pressure applied at the right points is paying off. Keep at it.
They also said they spoke to the council, who have said I am able to appeal with letter of authority and if the appeal is upgeld they will refund the charges. When you have this in writing, fine. Until then it comes under the umbrella of hearsay. And try and conduct your discussions in writing, at least confirm phone conversations by email. But don't leave things as tel calls. |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 06:23
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
I have all of the above in writing. I have asked the rep to contact me after asking the council for another NOR , I have asked to be updates.
I will write to the council today and ask for all paperwork so that I can appeal |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:38
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
If you have the key matters in writing, may we seem them please.
At present the LAW does not permit you to make reps (in your name) to the council IRRESPECTIVE of any letters to the contrary. You may only make reps if they issued a NTO in your name, to do which they would have had to cancel the one to Enterprise. This is the law and the authority cannot purport to change this without consequences, in this case dealing you a winning hand. So do you have a NTO in your name from the authority? |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:50
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
If you have the key matters in writing, may we seem them please. At present the LAW does not permit you to make reps (in your name) to the council IRRESPECTIVE of any letters to the contrary. You may only make reps if they issued a NTO in your name, to do which they would have had to cancel the one to Enterprise. This is the law and the authority cannot purport to change this without consequences, in this case dealing you a winning hand. So do you have a NTO in your name from the authority? IMO as this has passed NTO stage and is at appeal stage, not quite as cut an dried as that. There has been an NTO, challenged on hire ground and rejected. From the NOR the hire company can appeal to adjudicators. Or the hire company's authorised representative can act on their behalf. Which would be Sab as they have that authority in writing. My issue is whether or not the appeal will go ahead as the PCN has been paid. Obviously depends to a great extent on whether or not the council object. But I see no reason why an appeal cannot be registered, grounds cited (rejection of hire ground for starters but need to see what Enterprise sent) and take each step as it comes. We do need to see all paperwork you have to work out what grounds to use for appeal. This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:51 |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 12:30
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
As I posted, the OP cannot do anything in their name and until we see paperwork we cannot be certain what's what.
Over to you OP. |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:08
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/718kih
https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/mV97j5 https://www.flickr.com/gp/155513302@N05/043586 Please see attached the LOA, and NOT I received from enterprise. I have not yet heard in regards to NOR. I have included the email convo below aswell. Good afternoon, As previously discussed, we received a notice to owner and transferred liability. We make representations via post so we don’t hold any copies of the transfer of liability. I have spoken to the council regarding this and they have said that if you would like to appeal then you can still make a representation using the letter of authority and if the appeal is successful then they will refund the charges to us. Kind regards cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860 Olivia Mundabi Citations Coordinator UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division 01784428010 Department E219V0@ERAC.COM Enterprise House 203 London Road Staines-upon-Thames Surrey TW18 4HR enterprise.co.uk From: Sabiha Sent: 19 February 2018 13:07 To: Mundabi, Mbumba O Subject: Re: Letter of Authority - URGENT Hi Olivia, Could you please send me the Notice to Owner you received from the council in regards to this PCN. Could you also send me the Notice Of Rejection from the council. I need the following documents before I Pursue my case. Thanks On 19 Feb 2018, at 12:12, Mundabi, Mbumba O <Mbumba.O.Mundabi@ehi.com> wrote: Good afternoon, As previously explained, we would have already made payment for this penalty charge notice. The case will be closed due to payment, but the letter of authority will still allow you to appeal this fine. If the fine is cancelled, Enterprise will receive a refund. If you are charged by Enterprise before that time, we will issue a refund once you forward your notice of acceptance to us. Kind regards <image001.jpg> Olivia Mundabi Citations Coordinator UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division 01784428010 Department E219V0@ERAC.COM Enterprise House 203 London Road Staines-upon-Thames Surrey TW18 4HR enterprise.co.uk From: Sabiha Sent: 19 February 2018 10:03 To: Mundabi, Mbumba O Subject: Re: Letter of Authority Hi Olivia, I am instructing you not to pay the charges for this PCN. I am letting you know in writing that I am int he process of appealing this fine and if you pay the case will be closed. The council has informed me. I am giving you written notice to instruct you to not make the payment. Please confirm you understand . Thanks Sabiha |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 22:47
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The EVIDENCE in the form of the letter dated 19 Feb from Enterprise to the authority advises them that the letter is not reps.
The authority are entitled to take this at face value and file it. They may then issue a charge certificate to Enterprise. Strike 1, Enterprise are at fault and have no authority to ask or require the authority to contact you or you them or for them to deal with you. Strike 2, you cannot instruct Enterprise to not pay the penalty. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 04:41
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
So what does that mean?
I have written to the council asking for all paperwork so I can start the appeal process. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:06
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
You cannot.
The law only allows the recipient of a NTO to make reps. There can only be one NTO in effect at any one time, and it's with and in the name of Enterprise. It would be wholly improper and IMO unlawful/ultra vires for the authority to consider reps from you. There is no precedent as far as I am aware for an authority to consider reps from a third party which, if rejected, would result in them issuing a so-called NOR, but it cannot be one because your name is not on the NTO. The ONLY route is for Enterprise to make reps - see the Appeals regs: (2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information— (a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and (b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served— (i)those representations will be considered; (no such reps were made and cannot now be made) (ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner. And a letter stating it's not reps but contact Mr Smith is not 'in the form and manner ..in the notice to owner'. It is for ENTERPRISE to mitigate their losses, not to pass the buck/baton to you and blame you if it all goes wrong. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:07 |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:13
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 26 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,618 |
Ok. So what do I do about the money they will be taking out of my account to pay for this?
I have already sent a letter to the council, that cannot be stopped now. As I was under the impression the LOA will allow me to appeal? I am confused as to what I now need to do |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:49
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Can we be cleat.
Have Enterprise paid the penalty charge? If not, then play a straight bat. You have written to the council so I would now respond to Enterprise... Thank you for you letter dated 19 Feb. As my hire contract is with you, I have carried out your instructions to write to the council, see copy of my letter. However, I would advise you that this is contrary to parking legislation because only the recipient of the NTO may make representations ( I have enclosed an extract of the relevant regulations). I do not know how the authority will respond to your extra-procedural letter or my letter but would advise you that I cannot be held liable by you should the authority disregard this correspondence and possibly send you a charge certificate after the expiry of the 28-day payment period as they are entitlted to do. Hugs |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:48
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
I am going to disagree with HCA here.
There is an NOR though we have not seen it. That gives Enterprise or their representative opportunity to appeal to adjudication. Enterprise have IMO given you that authority. Use it. To appeal to adjudicators, not to council. Enterprise have not covered themselves with glory and there are many issues that may well allow a contractual argument with them. But this is not PCN it is contract. The PCN side has a route, IMO use it. |
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