Pcn Camden Red Route/Taxi 0nly |
Pcn Camden Red Route/Taxi 0nly |
Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 20:04
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
Hi guys, I got a PCN over festive period stopped on a Red Route at 8.19pm, and to the best of my knowledge, this Red Route bay was previously free after 7pm. And I have parked here numerous times over the last 4 years.When i stopped there were other cars parked up and I assumed it was same old bay etc. in my defence, I thought it was free after 7pm, I am a Blue Badge Holder. Plus I was only stopped for around 5minutes or so. Ironically I had a similar PCN back in 2016 which I successfully Challenged (TFL cancelled it). here's the thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1197708 Would you advise me to use my last appeal/ template. Also, would it be advisable to reference my last case/ would they have it on file since its the same no. plate/ car? I challenged it on the grounds that the 7pm-7am sign confused me. Or am I better off not referencing my last pcn but simply using the same Mitigating cirumstances ie Blue Badge Holder/ unaware of Signage change plus the fact that an adjudicator has ruled against them citing 'The Taxi Only wording should be shown in a separate panel', and thus against Schedule 6 Traffic Signs and Regulations. ' here are the Images/ sorry for several of the pics being rotated. Not sure why that happened once I uploaded it onto Tinypic Many thanks in advance and Happy New Yr All Tony image 1 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=n1fbqb&s=9#.Wk6CMN9l_Gg image 2 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=e9w9jn&s=9#.Wk6C8d9l_Gg image 3 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2d7hon4&s=9#.Wk6DmN9l_Gg image 4- Signage http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2nl8v9s&s=9#.Wk6EWd9l_Gg |
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Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 20:04
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Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 20:31
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#2
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Gawd this is going to be complicated. This one may help:-
2160287156 Contravention location:- OPP 34-36 Stoke Newington Road Contravention:- Stopped where prohibited The Appellant’s case is that the driver, his son, did not realise he was not entitled to park there. It is clear from the evidence that there is a sign in place to provide the motorist with that information; however the sign in question does not comply with the authorised sign “D” or “E” of the Secretary of State’s 2013 Authorisation in that the “Taxis only” wording is required to be shown in a separate panel. (Nor is the sign compliant with the more recent Schedule 6 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016). I do not regard the omission of the separate panel as a matter which can be overlooked on the principle of substantial compliance. The separate panel serves to highlight what is a fairly uncommon type of restriction and the motorist is entitled to the full impact of the sign. As I am not satisfied the restriction relied on was correctly and clearly signed the Appeal is allowed. --------------------------------------------- Plus:- 2170174757 (extract) The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so parked contrary to an operative Red Route restriction are obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion. The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises the certified copy Penalty Charge Notice, extracts of governing Traffic Management Order provisions, and photographic evidence: CCTV footage and still frames taken there-from revealing the said vehicle in situ and an image showing the applicable signage notifying motorists of the restriction. I note from the contemporaneous footage, and indeed the map/plan adduced by the Enforcement Authority, that the kerb delineation either side of the bay is a single red line; it is therefore of interest that the bay communicates an 'at all times' i.e. double red line provision. Further the divisional panels of the sign itself are non-compliant; the restriction to which the Enforcement Authority refer in the present matter is not separately stated to the motorist; rather it is encompassed (and thereby losses its proper notification facility) within the loading exception which is prominently accompanied by the customary symbol. There are no carriageway markings or other features to draw the motorist's attention. The Enforcement Authority itself, in its Notice of Rejection, not only cites ETA Case No. 2160287156 but also quotes Adjudicator Mr E. Houghton who found the sign to be substantially non-compliant; it is of concern that this Case continued to be contested notwithstanding that finding. I concur with Adjudicator Mr Houghton. Whilst it is incumbent upon a motorist to consult signage and comply with restrictions, it is incumbent upon an enforcement authority to ensure the signage implementing the terms of a Traffic Management Order is adequate to communicate the nature and extent of the restriction to motorists. I do not find that to be the case in this instance. Evidentially I cannot be satisfied that the contravention occurred, accordingly this Appeal is allowed. --------------- What is the road marking because we previously looked at whether a DRL should go through a bay of this nature. This thread and its associates should help:- http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111819 Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 20:39 |
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Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 23:06
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need to see the council photos
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 18:43
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
thank you both for the replies, and yes Mad Mick, that Case you posted was the same case I referenced in my appeal back in 2016. My pcn/ contravention location was at exact same spot too.
Whereas the one now is in a different area but I will be referencing that case again since the Red Route/ Taxi only bay is the same. PastMyBest, there's no images because this is not a Council fine but TFL. On the back of the PCN it appears IF one sends a request, they will be given a time/ date to view it at a certain location BUT to the best of my knowledge (from my PCN in 2016) TFL stopped this practice. thanks This post has been edited by superkoreanzombie: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 18:44 |
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Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 18:45
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
TFL usually have pics online. Log on on and check.
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Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 20:12
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
TFL usually have pics online. Log on on and check. Thanks I’ve just checked and there’s 3 images Image 1 time- 20:20 Image 2 shows time as 20:21 Image 3 is just a close up of no. plate I will use this to argue that their images show I was only stopped for a very short time (from my memory I went into a store to pick up something) and was in and out within 5-6 mins max |
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Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 20:31
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
I went into a store to pick up something) and was in and out within 5-6 mins max 5-6 minutes is well outside of De Minimus. -------------------- |
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Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 23:50
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
thank you both for the replies, and yes Mad Mick, that Case you posted was the same case I referenced in my appeal back in 2016. My pcn/ contravention location was at exact same spot too. Whereas the one now is in a different area but I will be referencing that case again since the Red Route/ Taxi only bay is the same. PastMyBest, there's no images because this is not a Council fine but TFL. On the back of the PCN it appears IF one sends a request, they will be given a time/ date to view it at a certain location BUT to the best of my knowledge (from my PCN in 2016) TFL stopped this practice. thanks TfL have re-instated their viewing facility - it's in Southwark |
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Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 00:02
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Since your Blue Badge entitlements would not apply, you're way over de minimis and TfL have now re-instated their viewing facility, I'd say go with the non-compliant signage.
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Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:06
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
Thank u all for the advice
And yes I will go with the “Non-compliant Signage” plus mitigating circumstances I’ve obtained a letter showing I had a foot op several months ago/ walking is still painful therefore I parked as closest to my destination as possible etc which is pretty much the same defence I used in the 2016 pcn involving similar Taxi red route bay. |
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Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 20:29
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2epizol&s=9#.WnTIsKhl_ix http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2prflg9&s=9#.WnTI4Khl_iw http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=oglvo7&s=9#.WnTJH6hl_iw Hi guys, TFL have rejected the appeal citing they let me off a similar PCN red route/ taxi only in 2016. would you advise me to pay up during discounted period (£65) or do you believe I have a strong case in reference to the 'Signage NOT being compliant with current Regulations ie Schedule 6 Traffic signs Regulations & General Directions 2016). I look forward to all your advice, thanks in advance tony |
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Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 21:01
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2epizol&s=9#.WnTIsKhl_ix http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2prflg9&s=9#.WnTI4Khl_iw http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=oglvo7&s=9#.WnTJH6hl_iw Hi guys, TFL have rejected the appeal citing they let me off a similar PCN red route/ taxi only in 2016. would you advise me to pay up during discounted period (£65) or do you believe I have a strong case in reference to the 'Signage NOT being compliant with current Regulations ie Schedule 6 Traffic signs Regulations & General Directions 2016). I look forward to all your advice, thanks in advance tony Well TfL/Capita have certainly upped their game if they're now actually checking previous cases! As to whether or not to go to adjudication, only you can decide - are you willing to go double or quits on the penalty and the time, effort and costs (which will be irrecoverable) to attend London Tribunals? This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 11:47 |
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Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 22:06
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2epizol&s=9#.WnTIsKhl_ix http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2prflg9&s=9#.WnTI4Khl_iw http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=oglvo7&s=9#.WnTJH6hl_iw Hi guys, TFL have rejected the appeal citing they let me off a similar PCN red route/ taxi only in 2016. would you advise me to pay up during discounted period (£65) or do you believe I have a strong case in reference to the 'Signage NOT being compliant with current Regulations ie Schedule 6 Traffic signs Regulations & General Directions 2016). I look forward to all your advice, thanks in advance tony Well TfL/Capita have certainly upped their game if they're now actually checking previous cases! As to whether or not to go to adjudication, only you can decide - are you willing to go double or quits on the penalty and the time, effort and costs (which will be irrecoverable) to attend London Tribunals? Thanks, I will appeal it all the way and just cite the other “Allowed” cases where Adjudicators have condemned the signage. I’ve only ever been to appeal yrs ago in person which was allowed and another recent one (for a friend) via post. Which again was allowed I won’t be attending this latest one, since I’ll just present the supporting arguments and let the adjudicator decide. It’s not a case of me being present where I need to clarify why I was stopped there and explain the situation etc Question The fact that TFL mentioned hey let me off a similar pcn in 2016, would this go against me ie Adjudicator might think “well he should have known better” and go against me Or do they just stick to case by case basis. Sorry I don’t have much experience dealing with Adjudicators Thanks |
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Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 08:43
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#14
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP------in your submission to the adjudicator you must stress that TfL has failed to consider your appeal and concentrated on mitigating circumstances. Just repeating what you submitted without responding to the precedent cases etc represents a procedural impropriety--failure to consider.
That they mention a previous case of exercising their discretion is interesting. Whilst they are trying to paint you as a serial offender it reads as if their decision not to exercise discretion in this case has been unduly influenced by your history. That amounts to fettered discretion IMO. Mick |
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Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 09:17
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
OP------in your submission to the adjudicator you must stress that TfL has failed to consider your appeal and concentrated on mitigating circumstances. Just repeating what you submitted without responding to the precedent cases etc represents a procedural impropriety--failure to consider. That they mention a previous case of exercising their discretion is interesting. Whilst they are trying to paint you as a serial offender it reads as if their decision not to exercise discretion in this case has been unduly influenced by your history. That amounts to fettered discretion IMO. Mick Ah interesting. That’s why I love and respect the people on these boards. Thank you very much for the advice, I will definitely mention it! Tony |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 11:16
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
Sorry, question, I’ve just had confirmation of my appeal received (London Tribunals), it mentions to submit all documents u wish adjudicator to consider
Would they already been sent the original appeal I sent to TFL? I did it online (original appeal) hence there’s no way I can send them a copy. Or would I have to contact TFL to get them to forward it to them ? Thanks Tony |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 11:42
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Sorry, question, I’ve just had confirmation of my appeal received (London Tribunals), it mentions to submit all documents u wish adjudicator to consider Would they already been sent the original appeal I sent to TFL? I did it online (original appeal) hence there’s no way I can send them a copy. Or would I have to contact TFL to get them to forward it to them ? Thanks Tony TfL will produce your reps in their "evidence pack", so no need to contact them. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:40
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
Thank u very much for the advice
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Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 20:31
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 8 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,322 |
I submitted my appeal to Adjudicator/ and just got a fat package thru the post today (which shows the evidence TfL) submitted
What’s interesting is, they even included my pcn for the red route mentioned in above thread back in 2016 at another location and how they let me off etc along with pics and everything haha. The cheek of it. They might as well bring up all my pcn’s dating back 18 yrs which is how long I’ve been driving whilst they’re at it. Just thought I’d share this with you helpful peeps |
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Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 21:45
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
I submitted my appeal to Adjudicator/ and just got a fat package thru the post today (which shows the evidence TfL) submitted What’s interesting is, they even included my pcn for the red route mentioned in above thread back in 2016 at another location and how they let me off etc along with pics and everything haha. The cheek of it. They might as well bring up all my pcn’s dating back 18 yrs which is how long I’ve been driving whilst they’re at it. Just thought I’d share this with you helpful peeps Extremely irregular , and even on the fringes of legality, as for these de-crim offences, each case stands on its own merits, as the adjudicators never cease to bang on about. |
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