stopping on school zigzags, waiting for traffic to clear ahead Options

[Rob232]

pcn
http://funkyimg.com/i/2GZNn.jpg
rear of pcn
http://funkyimg.com/view/2GZNp
street view
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4815347,-...3312!8i6656

Haven't been here in a while, hoping to get some help with this one
I was driving down the road along the zigzags outside a school and noticed that the road ahead was blocked with cars wanting to go forward and a sainsburys delivery (luton sized) van wanting to come my way
Where I stopped was on the zigzags but because of parked cars on both sides of the road ahead there was only enough room for one vehicle to travel.
I could not feasibly travel ahead without further blocking the road and causing a further obstruction. I waited for the obstruction ahead to clear.
I also manoeuvered my vehicle to allow the van enough space to get by
Whilst waiting, a workman came over to me and told me I was being caught on a vehicle camera.
The camera operator could clearly see in his wing mirror that the road was obstructed
When the sainsburys van finally made its way past me I drove ahead on my way.

I have seen the video and it shows me arriving, stopping on the zigzag and waiting, then manoeuvering, and that's all, 1 minute 38 seconds.
It does not show the sainsburys van (or the obstruction, since the camera was pointing towards me)
There has been huge building works going on at both ends of this small street recently, and traffic in the Nine Elms area is pretty bad at the best of times.
I am happy to share the link to the video via pm
Thanks

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[peterguk]

You didn't drop off or pick up anyone? Simply pulled up to allow traffic to maneuver?

Post a link to the video so all contributors can view.

[Rob232]

no picking up or dropping off
the video is on lambeths site and needs pcn no and registration to view.
not particularly happy with posting these
I will pm you them

[stamfordman]

You need to post the video here - don't worry about your VRM - we see them all the time in the street.

[Rob232]

I just took a video from my phone of the video onscreen on pc and it is 250 odd Mb
Trying to work out where to host that sized file
might be easier, and less costly to you good people, to just post the pcn number and vrn, it'll all come out in the wash anyway

[Rob232]

View My Video
here you go, 27Mb

[DancingDad]

Can't view the video

Exemption exists TSRGD, Schedule 7, part 6(4)(2)(b)

(b)a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

If your way forward is blocked and you pull over to allow oncoming traffic past, to me that falls into the exemption.
As always, only for as long as necessary.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 09:06

[Rob232]

You might have to click on the "...flash 9..." line, a popup appeared on my pc saying allow once, which let me view it


Edit; sent you a pm with details DD

This post has been edited by Rob232: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 09:15

[stamfordman]

I've put the video on Flickr. It's a quite a long time stalled there but hard to see what else you could do - maybe should have reversed out of there. In any case you must appeal.

[DancingDad]

A lot can be inferred from the video, enough that I would challenge and trust in an adjudicator if the council played silly muppets.
Obviously works going on and congested.
Volvo behind (who does drop off a passenger) U turns rather then overtakes
Other cars coming up behind static.
Car in front (parked?) indicates to pull out then doesn't...no way forward?
You seem to be manoeuvring for a U turn eventually.

Don't suppose you have a dash cam to show what was in front of you ?

[Rob232]

Thanks stamfordman, don't like reversing at the best of times in my van, can't see directly behind. That is why I moved forward first when manoeuvring so as to clear space behind before reversing.
You can see the car in front wants to go forward too at the end, but can't.
I was sat there for a good few minutes after the video ends before the road was clear to procede

no dash cam, must get one

yes the car in front was dropping off kids

[stamfordman]

Draft an appeal and post it here for comments.

I would include the purpose/destination of journey to show you had nothing to do with the works or school (if true).

[Rob232]

I was driving home at the time of the alleged incident, I live locally.
As can be seen from the video, building works were occurring on the street and the area was rather congested
As I drove along the zigzags outside the school I noticed that the road ahead was blocked with cars wanting to go forward and a sainsburys delivery (luton sized) van wanting to come my way
Where I stopped was on the zigzags, but because of parked cars on both sides of the road ahead there was only enough room for one vehicle to travel.
I could not feasibly travel ahead without further blocking the road and causing a further obstruction. I waited for the obstruction ahead to clear.
I also manoeuvered my vehicle to allow the van enough space to get by
Whilst waiting, a workman came over to me and told me I was being recorded on a vehicle camera.
The camera operator could clearly see in his wing mirror that the road was obstructed
When the sainsburys van finally made its way past me I drove ahead on my way.
Unfortunately the video does not show the full picture of the incident. It does not show the obstruction in the road behind the camera car, it doesn’t last long enough to show my full manoeuvre to clear enough space for the sainsburys van to proceed, nor does it show the sainsburys van passing, and me moving off.
It does however show the car behind dropping off a passenger and doing a u-turn, instead of overtaking me. It also shows the parked car in front indicating to pull out then waiting. Both of these actions suggest that the road ahead was not clear to proceed.
There is an exemption to stopping in this area in TSRGD, Schedule 7, part 6(4)(2)(b) “a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;”
The blockage in traffic ahead was obviously beyond my control and I believe this exemption applies. Therefore could you please cancel this PCN.
Best regards

[hcandersen]

Don't go defensive with this.

You approached the location and saw **** (whatever was causing the obstruction ahead) and realised that you could not proceed. The only issue was therefore where to stop safely. You decided to position yourself behind the stationary vehicle ahead and sufficiently beyond the stationary vehicle on your right to allow cars approaching from ahead to pull in behind you in order pass. You then realised that you'd not left enough room behind you so moved forward a little.

Then the Volvo appeared and took up this space. You thought ****** a**e. (In diplomatic speak.. my thoughts at this time about the driver of the Volvo are not printable)

The Volvo then realised they couldn't move forward either (after they'd tried pulling out) so decided to reverse - tricky manoeuvre which they would not have attempted had their way forward been clear.

Similarly with other traffic approaching from behind, no-one was going anywhere until the obstruction ahead cleared.

The fact that this was not in the video does not make it any less of an obstruction.

You moved forward when you could.

Clearly no contravention occurred because although you were stationary you were prevented from proceeding because of circumstances beyond your control therefore being stationary was permissible.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 10:15

[cp8759]

I would also put in a request under Article 15 of the GDPR asking for the next sequence of the video, they are no longer allowed to charge £10 for it and it will support your case.

[DancingDad]

I would go with HCA draft but would add in a line pointing out the car ahead was also static though indicating to pull out.
Better then my thoughts that start along the lines of WTF did your CEO think they were playing at …….

The only reason I would not give this 100% to win is that adjudicators sometimes have brain fade (councils often do) so a lot will depend on your will to go all the way if needed and your credibility if it comes to a personal hearing.

[stamfordman]

I would also put in a request under Article 15 of the GDPR asking for the next sequence of the video, they are no longer allowed to charge £10 for it and it will support your case.

That's going a bit OTT at this stage - maybe if it goes to adjudication.

[Rob232]

I was driving home at the time of the alleged incident, I live locally.
As can be seen from the video, building works were occurring on the street and the area was rather congested
As I drove along the zigzags outside the school I noticed that the road ahead was blocked with cars wanting to go forward and a Sainsburys delivery (luton sized) van wanting to come my way
Where I stopped was on the zigzags, but because of parked cars on both sides of the road ahead there was only enough room for one vehicle to travel. It seemed the only place to stop safely.
I could not feasibly travel ahead without further blocking the road and causing a further obstruction. I waited for the obstruction ahead to clear.
I also manoeuvered my vehicle to allow the van enough space to get by (which can be seen at the end of the video).
When the Sainsburys van finally made its way past me I drove ahead on my way.
The video does not show the full picture of the incident. It does not show the obstruction in the road behind the camera car, it doesn’t last long enough to show my full manoeuvre to clear enough space for the sainsburys van to proceed, nor does it show the sainsburys van passing, and me moving off. I request that the whole video evidence be made available to me if you decide to refuse this representation.
The video does however show the car behind starting to overtake me, realising there was no way forward and undertaking a tricky reversing manoeuvre which they would not have attempted had their way forward been clear.. It also shows the parked car in front indicating to pull out then waiting. Both of these actions suggest that the road ahead was not clear to proceed.
There is an exemption to stopping in this area in TSRGD, Schedule 7, part 6(4)(2)(b) “a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;”
The blockage in traffic ahead was obviously beyond my control and I believe this exemption applies. Also, any manoeuvre I may have decided to attempt involving prolonged use of reversing, could have caused injury to persons, since my van has no visibility to the rear and there were children around.
Could you please cancel this PCN.
Best regards

I will take this all the way if necessary
I have been commended by an adjudicator in the past about my credibility

[cp8759]

I would also put in a request under Article 15 of the GDPR asking for the next sequence of the video, they are no longer allowed to charge £10 for it and it will support your case.

That's going a bit OTT at this stage - maybe if it goes to adjudication.

Given the council have a month to reply I wouldn't delay.

[DancingDad]

That reads okay to me, not too legalese and simple.
I would take out believe...… ie This exemption applies.
And a proactive closure.... Please confirm cancellation of this PCN due to the above exemption or explain fully why the exemption does not apply.

I do agree with CP by the way, to start any request for the remainder of the video now.
Separate to the challenge, you have asked for it within that (which is fine) but as a parallel request under the GDPR rules.... I can't help on that but I suspect CP can