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Parking at work Local Cark Park Management ticket
SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:25
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I'm asking on behalf of my best friend, She didn't know about the scam and was going to pay it (I'm a long time lurker, first time poster!)

She had a temporary permit displayed on her dash, for some reason the guy who cleans the car park and issues "parking tickets" said she didn't have one. took photos of her car and left this on her windscreen



Then she received this in the post today



Whats the best way to proceed? Is it appeal then poplar?

I'll also get a picture of the sign on my way out as we work at the same place

Thanks
Stephen
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post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:25
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doreen4161
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:52
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Don't ring them. Don't hint at who the driver was. Others will be on to give better advice.
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:53
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First step is to get her work to intervene...

I would note that the Data Protection Act 1988 no longer exists. I would also put in a SAR for all the information they have - those photo's alone do not show the 'contravention'.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:53
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:52) *
First step is to get her work to intervene...


We work for the same company, the same company that says you are required by law to pay these "parking fines"

We don't own the building, we rent it. The landlord was less than helpful. Said we need to "appeal the fine"
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 18:57
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QUOTE (SirStevie @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:53) *
We work for the same company, the same company that says you are required by law to pay these "parking fines"

I wonder what 'law' that is...?

QUOTE (SirStevie @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:53) *
Said we need to "appeal the fine"

Sure fire way to get a rejection.

So, why wouldn't the temporary permit not be valid?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:00
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:57) *
QUOTE (SirStevie @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:53) *
We work for the same company, the same company that says you are required by law to pay these "parking fines"

I wonder what 'law' that is...?

QUOTE (SirStevie @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:53) *
Said we need to "appeal the fine"

Sure fire way to get a rejection.

So, why wouldn't the temporary permit not be valid?



Apparently, Now according to the landlord the guy couldn't see it. It may have fallen off the dash, I can't say that it was 100% there.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:22
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This is the sign as you enter the carpark. Apparently there is another one but I couldn't find it

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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:53
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That sign cannot form a contract.

Either the permit was on display or not? There's no dash close up...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 20:07
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 20:53) *
That sign cannot form a contract.

Either the permit was on display or not? There's no dash close up...


Can we play it safe and say it wasn't.

What would she have to do? Appeal and go Popla? Would the appeal base itself on the fact the pictures cannot prove or disprove the permit was on/or not on show?
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 20:36
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QUOTE
Would the appeal base itself on the fact the pictures cannot prove or disprove the permit was on/or not on show?

Nope, the appeal would be from the registered keeper, pointing out that there can be no keeper liability. No talking about who parked, or ''my permit''.

Come back at POPLA stage and the keeper wins it.

Shocking to see a BPA scumbag copying the fake PCNs on windscreens that are not a PCN at all, like VCS 'myparkingcharge' cases.

Luckily, that NTK is hopelessly non compliant, it neither meets para 8 nor para 9 wording from Schedule 4 of the POFA. No 8(2)f or 9(2)f warning, and other words also missing.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:00
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:36) *
QUOTE
Would the appeal base itself on the fact the pictures cannot prove or disprove the permit was on/or not on show?

Nope, the appeal would be from the registered keeper, pointing out that there can be no keeper liability. No talking about who parked, or ''my permit''.

Come back at POPLA stage and the keeper wins it.

Shocking to see a BPA scumbag copying the fake PCNs on windscreens that are not a PCN at all, like VCS 'myparkingcharge' cases.

Luckily, that NTK is hopelessly non compliant, it neither meets para 8 nor para 9 wording from Schedule 4 of the POFA. No 8(2)f or 9(2)f warning, and other words also missing.


Perfect thank you.

So would this be okay for an appeal?


Your Reference XXXXXXX

As registered keeper, I have received your letter and noted it is contents. I wish to appeal the charge based on the following points

- There can be no registered keeper liability, As registered keeper I am not obligated to give any driver details to private companies.
- Your "Notice to keeper" is non-compliant as it neither meets Paragraph 8 or 9 of the POFA and there was no 8(2)f or 9(2)f warnings.

I trust this settles the matter and expect to receive by return post confirmation this matter has been closed.

Regards
A. N. Other
Registered keeper


I guess she can print her name when "signing" it on a computer. IE where I wrote AN Other.

I'm really not good at things like this.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:06
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Looks fine. This will be won at POPLA as long as she knows NOT to say who was driving in any words, any appeal, no implying it by talking about 'my' permit.

No need for any signature as the non compliant NTK says an appeal can be lodged by email. But yes, the keeper's name goes at the end (they already have the keeper's name).

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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:10
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Thank you.

Before she sends it should I make sure there is no other sign there with some terms on it? or does it not matter?
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:14
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Doesn't matter yet, but while waiting for the POPLA code I would go and get more signage pics to make a nice, illustrated and persuasive POPLA appeal in November.

INTIMATION NOTICE made me laugh. What a pile of complete and utter drivel.

Not only does it read at first glance as IMITATION NOTICE (!) but the word intimation has a vague meaning that can mean 'notice'. So it actually says 'NOTICE NOTICE'!
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:23
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Sorry with all the questions!

I looked up 8(2)f or 9(2)f warnings.

They mention on page 2 they reserve the right to under POFA to come after the registered keeper? Does that still not meet with 8(2)f or 9(2)?
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ostell
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:42
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Because of that sign you could add:

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.
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SirStevie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 21:46
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So would this be okay?

Your Reference XXXXXXX

As registered keeper, I have received your letter and noted it is contents. I wish to appeal the charge based on the following points

- There can be no registered keeper liability, As registered keeper I am not obligated to give any driver details to private companies.
- Your "Notice to keeper" is non-compliant as it neither meets Paragraph 8 or 9 of the POFA and there was no 8(2)f or 9(2)f warnings.

The signage in the entrance of the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

I trust this settles the matter and expect to receive by return post confirmation this matter has been closed.

Regards
A. N. Other
Registered keeper
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 22:32
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QUOTE
They mention on page 2 they reserve the right to under POFA to come after the registered keeper? Does that still not meet with 8(2)f or 9(2)?

Of course not! You've seen the mandatory wording in 8(2)f and 9(2)f about ''if, after a period of 28 days beginning with the day after...'' blah blah!

They can't just mention the POFA on page one and then throw in a right to come after the registered keeper on page 2!

They also issue a hybrid PCN which was neither one thing nor the other but was CERTAINLY a 'Notice to Driver' (because it was a notice to the driver!) in which case they were unable to obtain the rk data and issue a Notice to Keeper by post until day 29 at the earliest. Same as VCS cases, they make it up as they go along.

That appeal is fine and the case will be won at POPLA on 'no keeper liability'.
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SirStevie
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 05:07
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Thank you

I'll get her to fire this off today in an e-mail. When we get the popla code I'll be back!
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 09:13
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...having put your time into researching POPLA appeals, so you know what to appeal on already smile.gif
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