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Expired residents permit.....by at least 7 years!
tommy2009
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 13:38
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Hi to all.
The wife got a Council ticket the other day parked outside her mother's.

19. Parked in... shared use... invalid permit.

We moved 80 miles away about 7 years ago, but the wife continued working part time for the Youth Service and Special Education Needs.
So for 3 days a week she stays at her mother's house.
7 years ago her mother told her she may as well keep the permit in her car for when she stays.
She said that if anyone else came she'd got a spare permit.
Her mother's 87.
All was well for 7 years until the other day.
I rang the Council and said she was displaying a valid ticket as it had no expiry date.
Turns out they'd cancelled that colour permit over 7 years ago.
Her mother didn't realise when they sent her a new one it was to replace the old one.
Not a spare as her mother thought.
Obviously the wife knew nothing of this or she'd have used the new.
It's very rare anyone other than the wife parks there.
I have on many occasions, but the wife gives me her 'invalid' ticket to take.
So the wife is fined for not being told by her confused elderly mother about the permit being replaced.
Is it still a slam dunk for the Council?
Thanks for any advice.
Tom
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post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 13:38
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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 14:09
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What council? A nice council will probably cancel when you explain this and show there is a valid permit that could have been used. A nasty council probably won't.

Post the PCN anyway.
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tommy2009
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 16:18
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Thanks for the reply.
There's a plate on the lamp-post says Permit Holders Only Mon to Sat 8am to 6pm.
PCN as requested and Permit.
I was looking at anaother thread for Greenwich Council - Continuous Contravention again.
On post 50 they give a link to their waiver and exemption policy. Some of them say first contravention is waived.
A couple sort of apply here.
The wife's 63 and never had a ticket in her life.
But that's for Greenwich.
Can't Google anything about WMDC policy.
Thanks again.
Tom

Not sure...
Says the attachments have uploaded but I don't see them in the post?
I've cleared previous attachments.
Says I've now used 112.08 K of 1.95MB of 2 current attachments.
I'll press post and hope for the best.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 17:03
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Well it's been correctly given as a lower level penalty and £25 is the lowest rate in England at discount so not a disaster.

Wakefield Council took over on street parking enforcement only in 2016:

http://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Pages/News/PR8238.aspx

so may be getting bedded in now.

I would write a polite challenge saying this was an honest mistake of an elderly resident, enclosing a copy of the valid permit, and asking if on this occasion they would cancel the PCN. In future, you will ensure the current permit is displayed.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 17:29
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tommy2009
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 17:37
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Thanks for the sensible advice.
I'll more or less say to them what I've said in the post.
The wife just wants to pay it but I'd rather have a go at appealing first.
Nothing ventured...
Thanks again.
Tom
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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 17:55
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Post your draft here first.

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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 19:35
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Upload the back of the PCN in full please.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Incandescent
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 19:56
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QUOTE (tommy2009 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 18:37) *
Thanks for the sensible advice.
I'll more or less say to them what I've said in the post.
The wife just wants to pay it but I'd rather have a go at appealing first.
Nothing ventured...
Thanks again.
Tom

Agreed, I think you're right to challenge it, but the only get-out is mitigation, and that is totally within their powers, and not one the adjudicators can rule on. They may give way, although most don't, but we do very occasionally see a ray of sunlight breaking through the black clouds of ruthlessness, venality, and rapacity, (the attributes of most council parking departments), so give it a go, and good luck !
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tommy2009
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:03
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Thanks again for the replies.

As requested here's the back of the PCN and my draft appeal.

Tom

Dear Sirs,
I would like to appeal the above PCN.

I was parked outside my mother's house at ...., displaying what I thought was a valid permit.
I was very surprised to find I had a PCN for displaying an invalid permit.
I rang my husband, who then rang WMDC. The switchboard said someone from Parking would ring him back.
When the lady rang, my husband explained the permit must be valid, as it had no expiry date on it.
The lady said, that permit was replaced with a new one several years ago, which I wasn't aware of.

Seven years ago I moved from Castleford to my present address 80 miles away. I continued working part-time for WMDC Youth Service and Special Education Needs three days a week. On those three days I stayed at my mother's. She gave me the 'invalid' blue permit, which I enclose, saying, 'Keep it in your car seeing as you use it every week. I've got a spare one.'
The 'spare one' being the replacement.
She's now 87 years old, and has been a bit confused over the years.
She would have opened the envelope it came in, seen the new permit and thrown away any explanation for why it had been sent.

So, for seven years I've used the blue permit three times a week outside my mother's, blissfully unaware it was invalid, with no traffic warden problems until now. I thought I was always abiding by the 'Permit Holders Only' signs.
She doesn't get many visitors in cars other than me, so my using the 'invalid' permit alongside someone else using the 'new' valid permit has never cropped up. The warden would have spotted two permits for the same address if it had.

I would obviously not have used the blue permit if I had known it was invalid, and would definitely not risked using it three times a week for the past seven years. Not if I knew there was a perfectly valid replacement just inside the house.

I made no financial gain from the permit, and WMDC had no financial loss. It was just a genuine mistake on the part of my mother. Bless her.

If you check your records you will see I've never had a parking ticket in forty years of driving. I've always abided by parking regulations.

I respectfully request that you waive this PCN, as this is my first ever parking offence. I've enclosed the blue permit so it can never be used again. I now use the 'spare' valid permit... now I know about it.

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stamfordman
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:28
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Far too long.

Dear sir or madam,

I wish to challenge PCN no xxxxxx owing to an honest mistake by my elderly mother regarding the visitor's permit for her address at xxxxxxx. We have been using the blue permit for years with no problems, but now understand it has been replaced by a more recent permit sent to my mother. However, she thought this was a spare and didn't understand the blue one had become invalid. As there is no expiry date on the blue permit we had no reason to think it was invalid.

I do hope you will exercise discretion on this occasion as there was no intent to use an invalid permit. I enclose a copy of the valid permit and assure you we will use this one in future and have binned the old one.

With thanks

xxxxx

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tommy2009
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 14:59
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Thank you very much for that, stamfordman, and your time.
As you can see, I do like to get all the story down.
Yours is far more succinct and to the point, containing everything they need to know.
I'll use that instead of mine.
I'll post with the outcome.

Thanks once again,

Tom


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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 21:30
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The use of an 0845 number on the back of the PCN makes it potentially unlawful. I've made appropriate enquiries to investigate this.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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tommy2009
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 14:01
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It's because of knowledgeable people like you that I use and love this forum.
And why Councils and cowboys hate you.

biggrin.gif wink.gif

Tom
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tommy2009
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 08:43
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Hello.
Wife got her response from WMDC.
They've cancelled the ticket!
Seems they do have a heart after all.

Many thanks, again, to everyone for their advice, again.
regards,
Tom
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stamfordman
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 08:58
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Good - well done.
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