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[NIP Wizard] No Visible Speed Camera Signs 37 in 30 Zone
MCCRoadster
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2019
Date of the NIP: - 26 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 28 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Measham road, Acresford, Leicestershire, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hirer
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Left 40mph limited main road to join a 30mph road, both roads displayed clear signage of limits. Entered side road slowly and noticed stationary vehicle in opposite direction motion with his hand ‘slow down’ which at the time I thought odd as I wasn’t driving quickly. My thoughts then went to speed camera so continued with some caution. I was aware further up the road that average speed cameras are set up and for 30mph but I never reached this area. I observed that there were no speed camera signs anywhere visible at all, and I later took photographs to provide evidence of this. The road is very twisty here so it’s difficult to go too fast. As I exited the small village I could see marker boards denoting national speed limit. I began to increase my speed in response to this. Just then I noticed a stationary speed camera van parked outside some house at the end of the village and just prior to the national speed limit change. I instinctively slowed and glanced at my speedometer (which is constantly showing as a digital readout, and I had been monitoring throughout) and I am confident that this did not exceed 39mph. Bearing in mind that speedometers are set with a threshold of about 5mph, then my speed should have been an actual 34mph. It is of course possible that I may have not realised my speed touch 42mph in aniticipation to the 60mph limit change. What can be done here and are there any grounds to there being no speed camera signs visible for this mobile site? I did read that all sites need to be adequately signed to warn motorists of speed cameras. Your help and advice is appreciated thank you.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:47:53 +0000
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post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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TonyS
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 12:09
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In this case, where the NSL sign is actually within the system of street lights, would (or should) there be an order setting the speed limit? Because if I understand correctly if there were no signs at all, the 30mph limit would extend at least until the last light. Possibly some distance after, or does the limit strictly end at the last light?
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The Rookie
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 13:40
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Yes there would be an order to raise the speed limit (unless a mistake has been made and no order exists) and yes it’s worth checking the signs align with the order.


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MCCRoadster
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 13:41
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I wasn’t suggesting anything, just presenting the facts smile.gif

However, with the apparent lack of street lighting and rural setting, one ‘may’ be forgiven for momentarily believing that the speed limit was higher than the proposed 30 mph.

Realistically (and based upon other members advice) it seems that the last lamp post ‘can’ be included in determining a 30 mph zone ‘even though’ it is located clearly within the NSL zone.

I’m asking, does everyone agree on this?

If so then the ‘lamp post defence’ will not stand up.
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MCCRoadster
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 14:37
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Just spoken with the highways at the associated council. 100% identified the road. They confirmed that there are no TROs for that road. Never have been and none set for the future. I asked how and where they determine one speed limit starts and another ends. They gave me an email if I wanted to enquire further. Traffic and signal department.

No Traffic Road Order. A mistake then? The lamp post is within the NSL zone or the NSL sign is within the 30 mph zone. Either way it’s a blunder right?

I can email them but please advise what it is I need to be asking them if you think it is necessary of course.

Your thoughts and comments welcome.
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TonyS
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 14:44
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 14:41) *
However, with the apparent lack of street lighting and rural setting, one ‘may’ be forgiven for momentarily believing that the speed limit was higher than the proposed 30 mph.

But from the measurements you've taken it doesn't sound as if there is any lack of street lighting. If anything it could be argued that the absence of an order means the 30 limit applies past the NSL sign. I can't see how you can construct a case for saying that NSL should be in effect prior to the sign and within the lighting.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 14:56
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My thoughts are that if there are no Orders then the lampposts define the 30mph limit. I'm not sure what you mean by "apparent lack of street lighting" because you've described it and it meets the "200 yards" requirement. You were within their jurisdiction - and in advance of the NSL sign - when you were detected. If the NSL sign was not there at all the 30mph limit would unarguably prevail until the final lamppost. Its existence a little before that point cannot jeopardise the integrity of the 30mph limit. The presence of a lamppost in the NSL zone does not mean much (apart from a "repeater" requirement which does probably not apply here as it is too close to the NSL sign). I cannot see how it impinges on the earlier 30mph limit.

But they are only my thoughts. Others may have a different view.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 14:58
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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 15:19
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There are 30mph terminal signs (pairs) at both ends and a system of streetlighting that is compliant.

I don't see any issue?

The alleged speeding occurred prior to the 50mph signs and still within the lighting. Even a lamp post past the 50mph terminal sign then that doesn't assist here?

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 15:37) *
No Traffic Road Order. A mistake then? The lamp post is within the NSL zone or the NSL sign is within the 30 mph zone. Either way it’s a blunder right?

No mistake - that's how restricted roads are. Even if it was a 'blunder' (I don't think it is) then it doesn't assist you anyway.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 15:17


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MCCRoadster
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 16:38
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Ok. I was hoping that the final lamp post could not be included because it was outside of the 30 mph zone? But it appears that it actually makes the zone? Its a bit daft that they placed the NSL signs where they did right? It would have been better practice to place them ‘after’ the final lamp post.

I was pinning hope on what the rookie posted at 14.40 today.

Looks like this defence is sinking fast.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 17:10
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It’s possible that the order that raised the limit actually extends past where the signs are for that limit. The order sets the limit (and where it starts) the signs just convey that so it’s worth checking.

I don’t think there is anything that is definitive as to whether a lamp post in a higher limit still creates a system, it’s just my opinion based on the wording of the legislation that it does.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Logician
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 18:34
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 17:38) *
Ok. I was hoping that the final lamp post could not be included because it was outside of the 30 mph zone? But it appears that it actually makes the zone? Its a bit daft that they placed the NSL signs where they did right? It would have been better practice to place them ‘after’ the final lamp post.


From a different angle it looks as though they are in line, which is actually correct.



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 18:10) *
It’s possible that the order that raised the limit actually extends past where the signs are for that limit. The order sets the limit (and where it starts) the signs just convey that so it’s worth checking.


The OP was told there is no order.

The lamp posts make it a restricted road, between the first and the last post. Outside of that restricted stretch, it is NSL. For all practical purposes, the post and the limit sign are in line, see my previous post. If they were not it would make no difference, the lampposts make the 30mph limit, the signs should indicate the limit, but cannot alter it.



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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 17:34
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 17:38) *
Ok. I was hoping that the final lamp post could not be included because it was outside of the 30 mph zone? But it appears that it actually makes the zone? Its a bit daft that they placed the NSL signs where they did right? It would have been better practice to place them ‘after’ the final lamp post.

Strictly speaking the NSL sign should be posted dead on the spot where the limit changes, on some roads this is done by simply attaching the terminals signs to the street lighting column itself. In practice many authorities place the actual sign as close as practicable to where the limit changes which could be a few feet before or after the relevant point, which is what seems to have happened here.

Legally the speed limit ends at the last lighting column, if you were to be pinged after the sign but before the last light you'd technically be speeding but you'd have a defence that the signs misled you (though with the gap being at best a few feet this situation cannot in practice arise on this road).

Unfortunately for you there is no defence here that the system of street lighting is missing or defective and IMO there is no question that an enforceable 30 mph speed limit is in force. At least you can say you explored all available avenues, and if you go on a course you'll probably know more about restricted roads than anyone else (possibly including the instructor).


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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