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NIP, non-UK driver nominated. Now going to court, Threads merged
cheapshots
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:13
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Hi all,

I'm new here and did a lot of reading prior to posting but couldn't find a similar issue raised.

NIP travelling 71mph in 60mph variable speed limit zone on M1 northbound.

The driver was my Canadian relative visiting the UK. I gave Police his details and a copy of his (Canadian) insurance policy too. I let him use my car on the condition his insurance covers him, which Police are saying it doesn't and now they want to take me to court for permitting use of my vehicle without insurance.

Before he drove my car, he explicitly told me his insurance covers him and that he brought his insurance papers with him. I'm mortified and furious at him (and myself) for trusting him. He's currently having words with his Canadian insurance company but I'm not holding my breath and have lost faith in him.

This is bad of me to say but a part of me wishes I fibbed and told Police I was the driver and be done with it (I have a clean license, never been on any courses etc); the irony of it all!

Anyway, I'm in this mess so have to deal with it. Questions for you lovely people:

1) Does anybody know what sort of result can I expect and do I have to physically attend Court?
2) I'm awaiting confirmation from various Freedom of Information requests, but I strongly believe the grace period between first setting the 60mph variable speed limit signs above the gantries and camera enforcement of the 60mph limit was less than 45 seconds. If this is the case, would it:
a) Invalidate the initial NIP
b) Also invalidate the current permitting to drive offence

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

cheapshots
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post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:13
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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 18:00
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Yep.


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Logician
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 18:43
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That's the way to do it!


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panther12
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 18:59
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Few years back my brother received a speeding nip when our cousin from Oz came over to visit and borrowed his car. In his case he made it clear that it was on the express condition that cousin held valid insurance. The photo clearly showed it was the cousin driving and luckily the police didn't take it further when he nominated her and also sent them a copy of cousins flight & travel itinary to prove she was a genuine overseas visitor - although they did contact cousin in Oz requesting a copy of her Oz driving licence.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 19:26
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 18:56) *
Too late for the OP now, but is it permissible to put someone with an overseas licence on your own insurance for a week?

I've never compared prices but personally I would just insist on a separate short term policy.

Firstly you can shop around rather than the inevitable unknown risk = £££ you would get from your normal insurance.

Secondly protects your policy from the driving on the wrong side of the road, not understanding priorities bumps.

Thirdly provides proof a third party paid for the policy with an overseas card in the event of the inevitable "my friend from overseas who is difficult to contact" scepticism.

Although for the OP I don't really understand why he is reluctant to assist you. He has both dropped you in it and, presuming the police are not also prosecuting him, there is no risk of him getting any punishment. It doesn't on the face of it appear to be a terrifying prospect and certainly I cannot believe the court will find any reticence plausible if you are still in touch.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 19:34
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 20:26) *
Although for the OP I don't really understand why he is reluctant to assist you.

I don’t think he is reluctant.


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Korting
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 22:13
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What if his Canadian Insurance certificate stated that he could drive other cars in other Countries? The OP's Cousin would have considered he was insured, the OP when he looked at the certificate would probably have accepted he was insured.

Most people know that they have to be insured, but how many know that the Insurance company needs to be a member of the ABI.

What if the OP produced a copy of that certificate to the Police or the Court?

This post has been edited by Korting: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 22:13
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Logician
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 22:42
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It would not be a defence, no insurance being a strict liability offence, but could be useful mitigation.


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roythebus
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 10:34
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So if an insurance company is not a member of the ABI how do European driver get on with being insured in this country? Is Canada not a party to the Geneva (?) Convention on recognition of other countries' insurace and driving licences?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 11:01
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Because they are not insuring a UK registered vehicle. Had the Canadian visitor been driving his Canadian registered car it would have been different.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Logician
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 11:04
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 11:34) *
So if an insurance company is not a member of the ABI how do European driver get on with being insured in this country? Is Canada not a party to the Geneva (?) Convention on recognition of other countries' insurace and driving licences?


As I said "for insurance to be valid for driving a UK registered car in the UK, the insurer must be a member of the ABI (Association of British Insurers)." A non-UK European driver driving in the UK in his own car registered in his own country is no problem, and similarly Canadian insurance would be recognised for driving a Canadian registered car. The problem in this case is that it was a UK registered car that was driven, and a UK registered car needs to be covered by an ABI insurer when driven on British roads.



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cp8759
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 22:45
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:44) *
QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:36) *
If he agree's, do you think it's a good idea to send it to the Police Force before I've received my Court papers?

Yes.

His statement and letter may be admissible under s 116(2)(c) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (hearsay - witness outside UK and not reasonably practicable to secure his attendance).

Given section 46(1C) of the Criminal Justice Act 1972 has been repealed, is a statement taken abroad admissible at all? Or has that provision been re-enacted elsewhere?


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southpaw82
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 13:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 23:45) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:44) *
QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:36) *
If he agree's, do you think it's a good idea to send it to the Police Force before I've received my Court papers?

Yes.

His statement and letter may be admissible under s 116(2)(c) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (hearsay - witness outside UK and not reasonably practicable to secure his attendance).

Given section 46(1C) of the Criminal Justice Act 1972 has been repealed, is a statement taken abroad admissible at all? Or has that provision been re-enacted elsewhere?

IIRC, the CJA 2003 hearsay provisions are intended to be a stand alone code but the strict answer is “don’t know” - it’s something that comes up fairly frequently in my jurisdiction (so I know the answer) but as for England and Wales...


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JRHartley
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 12:21
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QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:13) *
The driver was my Canadian relative visiting the UK...


QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:56) *
To clarify, my Canadian friend was driving yes.


Was it a Canadian relative or a friend who was driving?

The police do monitor these forums.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:01
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QUOTE (JRHartley @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:21) *
QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:13) *
The driver was my Canadian relative visiting the UK...


QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:56) *
To clarify, my Canadian friend was driving yes.


Was it a Canadian relative or a friend who was driving?

The police do monitor these forums.

The distinction is irrelevant unless you are (incorrectly) saying the police would secure a PCoJ conviction from one word on an internet forum.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:16
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The OP has already named a driver so that is "locked in" unless there are questions about whether that entire nomination is correct.
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StuartBu
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 14:36
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QUOTE (JRHartley @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:21) *
QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:13) *
The driver was my Canadian relative visiting the UK...


QUOTE (cheapshots @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:56) *
To clarify, my Canadian friend was driving yes.


Was it a Canadian relative or a friend who was driving?

The police do monitor these forums.


Can't a relative be a friend as well ?
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GAZ237
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE
Can't a relative be a friend as well ?


Not after doing something like this.

Gave my Uncle a car to use, whilst over from NZ for 6 weeks ( with the promise of him sorting insurance).

He was well chuffed when dropping the car back and telling me how much he saved by not bothering with insurance as he didn't get stopped.

Told him to find his own way to the airport and not spoken to him since, in 10 years.

Luckily no tickets came through.

Moral is, don't trust anyone.
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cheapshots
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:55
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Hi all,

Bit of a recap:

- June 2018; received NIP for my vehicle travelling 71mph in 60mph variable speed limit motorway
- I supplied Police with the drivers details (Canadian relative) and insurance/license details
- I permitted him to drive on the explicit condition that he is insured to do so and I forwarded Police a witness statement from my relative also stating this

Police state his insurance was not valid and are now after me permitting to drive glare.gif

Today, I received a Single Justice Procedural Notice for
(1) exceeding variable speed limit
(2) permitting use of motor vehicle with no insurance

They state that there is a 33% discount on any fine if I plead guilty. I feel like I'm being forced to plead guilty... If I plead not guilty, does anybody know what the procedure is? I have never been to court before and it feels really daunting. Any advice would be welcomed.



The original post is here but the summary above is pretty much all you need

This post has been edited by Fredd: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 17:42
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peterguk
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:57
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Linked to your previous thread?
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122161&hl=
If same case, don't start another thread.

ETA

I see you've confirmed same case. A mod will merge.

A discount on the fine is offered to those that know they're guilty and wish to "fess up" at trhe earliest opportunity.

Are you intending relying on your defence? Did you see an insurance certificate?

If not, presumably your relative has by now emailed you a copy of their insurance? (It is, as by now you know, very unlikely they had insurance to drive in the UK)

If you intend fighting, plead not guilty and a trial date will be set.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:12


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NewJudge
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:17
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You are not being forced to plead guilty. The court is simply pointing out to you the discount you get if you do so rather than being convicted following a trial. In fact, as was explained earlier, the discount is considerably greater than one third when costs are considered.

You face an uphill struggle with this. As pointed out earlier, the offence is one of "strict liability". Your friend/relative was either insured or he wasn't. It seems he wasn't and if not it means you permitted the offence. There may be some mileage in the "conditional permission" argument. I don't know the details of the two cases which southpaw referred to in post #5. It seems that not only were you mistaken about him being covered but possibly he was too, but that doesn't really help very much.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:21
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