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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ NOTICE OF APPOINTMENT AS DEBT COLLECTORS

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
Post #1312946

Dear Sir,

I was shocked to received a letter from the debt collector company with total outstanding amount as 392.00£ sad.gif, the details of this letter is as follows

"
Client: London borough of ealing
Contravention date: 01/12/2015
VRM: ******* (this is the VRM of my vehicle)
Location: The broadway/ herbert Road Southall 818

We have been instructed by the London borough of ealing to recover the above parking charges which remain outstanding.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. FURTHER ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AT CONSIDERABLE COST TO YOU IF THE DEBT IS NOT CLEARED.
"

the letter is just one page without any further details of the PCN and contravention date is 08/12/2015. I had never received any other letter from London Borough Of Ealing and I am totally confused what shall I do now. The debt company is asking a heft charge of 392 and there is no way I can pay that, even my car is even less than that.

Please advise what shall I do, how can I challenge this letter and PCN etc.

Many Thanks

Posted by: peterguk Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:27
Post #1312951

Start with basics. You claim to know nothing of the matter so have you moved recently?

Get your V5C out for the vehicle and check the address is 100% correct.

Most of these surprises are not due to the loss by Royal Mail of all the correspondence sent out, but by a V5C address out of date or incorrect for another reason.

And either garage your car or park it it some distance from your house.

Posted by: Incandescent Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:52
Post #1312955

The only way to turn this around to get back to the original PCN is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, or a Witness Statement. Which one you submit depends on what the PCN was issued for. Whilst it is free to submit one, it can and will be opposed by the council who clearly don't want to have to pay the bailiffs and not get any dosh.

Do, please, answer the questions raised by Peterguk. We see far too many people on here who have moved and not updated their V5C, so all the correspondence goes to their old address and is not forwarded or returned. Councils issue all the documents in the process and when they get nothing back instruct bailiffs who are very diligent in seeking out the debt. Incidentally, whilst they tend to seize your car, they can seize any property, a car is just easier.

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 20:08
Post #1312960

The amount £392 makes no sense.

Topic title is interesting too?

Show us what you have received.

Posted by: Enceladus Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 11:14
Post #1313036

Scan the letter and post up a link to it. Don't attach the letter to a post as you will run out of space. Use a hosting site such as tinypic.com, there are plenty of others. Create a free of charge basic account, upload your photo/doc/scan and copy and paste the the link into a post on here. If you don't have a scanner you could take a picture with a phone. Please make sure the photo is evenly lit, flat and the right way up. And if you can't read it nor can we. You need to edit out or otherwise redact your name and address and the VRM. Please leave everything else visible. Especially dates, times locations and enforcement authority details. You could use some cut up pieces of post-it note to redact.

I too cannot reconcile the £392 with the defined enforcement process. Let's see what's what?

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 10:17
Post #1313217

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 20:13) *
what shall I do now.

Talk to us?

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:41
Post #1314799

Apologies, I was away for a week and could not reply earlier. Please see attached the scan letter.

 

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:45
Post #1314800

What do the figures top right say?

or

Host images externally, e.g. Tinypic or Flickr and paste the [IMG] or BB codes, respectively,
in a reply here.

Posted by: peterguk Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:48
Post #1314803

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 21:08) *
The amount £392 makes no sense.


Even moreso considering the DC letter mentions £404.00.

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:49
Post #1314804

and why have you blanked out who it's from?

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:51
Post #1314805

Yes, you are right, I moved home in Dec 2015 and did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016 and I assume they might have sent the original PCN to the old address.

But still it has been more than 18 months since I got the address updated on V5C and I never received anything from either council or someone else within those 18 months.

I also got the wrong amount in my original post as 392 (I was/am very nervous/shocked due to this high amount they are claiming), the right amount is 404£, so apology for this.

Please please advice what are the options for me as there is no way I can pay this money.

Many Thanks!

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:55
Post #1314806

and the outstanding questions?

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 19:56
Post #1314807

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:49) *
and why have you blanked out who it's from?


It is from Newlyn. Do you want me to scan the letter again?

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:00
Post #1314808

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:56) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:49) *
and why have you blanked out who it's from?


It is from Newlyn. Do you want me to scan the letter again?

See posts #5 and #8.

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:02
Post #1314809

another scan of the same letter.

 

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:05
Post #1314812

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:02) *
another scan of the same letter.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:00) *
See posts #5 and #8.


can you please READ the replies we are giving. I can't read what I need to know!

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:09
Post #1314814

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:45) *
What do the figures top right say?


The top right figure says
"
Current Outstanding Account
Newlyn Ref Balance
123456 202.00
999999 202.00
Total £404.00

"
please let me know do I need to answer any other questions, which I might have missed?

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:17
Post #1314815

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:09) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:45) *
What do the figures top right say?


The top right figure says
"
Current Outstanding Account
Newlyn Ref Balance
123456 202.00
999999 202.00
Total £404.00

"
please let me know do I need to answer any other questions, which I might have missed?

Ok, now it makes sense -

-- and it's very odd at the same time.

That's TWO PCNs.

So, although Newlyns are bailiffs, they are acting only as debt collectors in this, SO FAR.

Probably because of the age of the PCNs; just asked by Ealing to see if you'll pay, before escalating it.

That suggests to me that there are no live warrants for these (or perhaps warrants have expired?)
We will find out.
The debts were registered with TEC (the Court) a long while ago.
--
More coming.

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:29
Post #1314819

So,
you first need to find out if there are live warrants for these PCNs (or ever have been).

Newlyn have been less than helpful, not giving PCN numbers -- or have they and you've blanked it out?

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:35
Post #1314820

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:29) *
So,
you first need to find out if there are live warrants for these PCNs (or ever have been).


how can I find that out, please advice?

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:29) *
Newlyn have been less than helpful, not giving PCN numbers -- or have they and you've blanked it out?


I only blanked out the "Newlyn Ref", Client Ref, VRM and Payment Barcode and nothing else. There is no mention of PCN unless they are same as "Newlyn Ref", which I don't know.

When you say there are 2 PCNs, does it mean I made the same mistake TWICE?

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:43
Post #1314825

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:29) *
So,
you first need to find out if there are live warrants for these PCNs (or ever have been).


how can I find that out, please advice?
We have to establish what is going on first. I'm coming to that.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:29) *
Newlyn have been less than helpful, not giving PCN numbers -- or have they and you've blanked it out?


I only blanked out the "Newlyn Ref", Client Ref, VRM and Payment Barcode and nothing else. There is no mention of PCN unless they are same as "Newlyn Ref", which I don't know.
What is next to each of the 202 amounts.

When you say there are 2 PCNs, does it mean I made the same mistake TWICE? Maybe: It's 2 different PCNs for something but they only mention one date.
Again, we'll find out.



Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:52
Post #1314827

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:29) *
Newlyn have been less than helpful, not giving PCN numbers -- or have they and you've blanked it out?

I only blanked out the "Newlyn Ref", Client Ref, VRM and Payment Barcode and nothing else. There is no mention of PCN unless they are same as "Newlyn Ref", which I don't know.
What is next to each of the 202 amounts.



Current Outstanding Account
Newlyn Ref Balance
1234567 (this is 7 digit number) £202.00
9999999 (this is 7 digit number) £202.00
Total £404.00

Both of the above "Newlyn Ref" numbers are different.

The first Newlyn Ref number mentioned against the first 202 amount is same as mentioned within the SQAURE BOX "Newlyn Ref" which i blanked out.

Looks like this is going to be very messy and painful sad.gif

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:10
Post #1314830

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:52) *
Looks like this is going to be very messy and painful sad.gif

We are making progress.

The only way to find out if warrants are live is to call TEC and ask.

But u can't without PCN numbers.

The only people who can tell you those are Ealing or Newlyn.

Several people report being unable to speak to anyone at Ealing recently.

So that leaves Newlyn - and I'm not sure. That is like kicking the tiger's cage; it might make them escalate
the matter if they do indeed have warrants.

It might be they've found 'an' address they think is you and want to confirm before escalating. Those refs are
clearly made-up/fake 1234567 and 9999999 ?

So, for now -
Now that we've established, loosely, what this demand is, I want to wait for the views of other members.

And, I'm going to contact someone who knows Newlyn better than any of us.

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:16
Post #1314832

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:10) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:52) *
Looks like this is going to be very messy and painful sad.gif

We are making progress.

The only way to find out if warrants are live is to call TEC and ask.

But u can't without PCN numbers.

The only people who can tell you those are Ealing or Newlyn.

Several people report being unable to speak to anyone at Ealing recently.

So that leaves Newlyn - and I'm not sure. That is like kicking the tiger's cage; it might make them escalate
the matter if they do indeed have warrants.

It might be they've found 'an' address they think is you and want to confirm before escalating. Those refs are
clearly made-up/fake 1234567 and 9999999 ?

So, for now -
Now that we've established, loosely, what this demand is, I want to wait for the views of other members.

And, I'm going to contact someone who knows Newlyn better than any of us.


Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

Many thanks Neil for doing so much efforts at this time of the hour for me. I highly appreciate it.

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:23
Post #1314835

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

Many thanks Neil for doing so much efforts at this time of the hour for me. I highly appreciate it.

Growl.

So they might be partial PCN numbers. (1 digit and 2 letters short)

Let's see what others think tomorrow.

Posted by: sandygarg Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:27
Post #1314837

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

Many thanks Neil for doing so much efforts at this time of the hour for me. I highly appreciate it.

Growl.

So they might be partial PCN numbers. (1 digit and 2 letters short)

Let's see what others think tomorrow.


okay.

Good night Neil and many thanks once again.

Enjoy your weekend!

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:28
Post #1314838

-

@ members.
Was curious about warrants so one thing I've looked for is a time limit on a Council application
for a warrant of control. i.e. how long after OfR deadline expires.

Can't find one in CPR so it seems unlimited?
Might be wrong.

Posted by: Bogsy Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:05
Post #1314844

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:28) *
-

@ members.
Was curious about warrants so one thing I've looked for is a time limit on a Council application
for a warrant of control. i.e. how long after OfR deadline expires.

Can't find one in CPR so it seems unlimited?
Might be wrong.


It seems no specific time limit is stated in legislation but courts have determined that anything longer than 6 months in serving a formal notice (such as an NTO for example) is unreasonable so the same time restraint might apply to warrants if challenged in a court. I've still been unable to find where the law allows a council to add the £8 debt registration charge to the OfR and to then add it to the warrant of control. Any ideas or is it possible that this £8 charge is akin to the pay by credit card unlawful surcharge?

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:15
Post #1314846

You've asked a few times Bogsy and same here: I've looked, inspired by your question but found nowt.

Yes aware of general reasonableness but that's the realm of adjudicators.
I'm curious to know, if they've never applied for warrants for these, if they can now.
At £7 registration each, these were registered at least a year ago I think.

If they did get warrants then, @ 12 months life, they may have expired and this is a forlorn try-on by
Ealing/Newlyn.

btw I've lost your e-mail address. Ping mine if you still have it?

Posted by: Bogsy Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 23:30
Post #1314863

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 23:15) *
You've asked a few times Bogsy and same here: I've looked, inspired by your question but found nowt.

btw I've lost your e-mail address. Ping mine if you still have it?


PM'd you my email NB. No one else has found the answer either which is encouraging. Imagine that fee being ultra vires! If something sounds too good to be true then it usually is. Some input from Southpaw would be good here. SP are you watching/reading?

Posted by: Enceladus Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 00:48
Post #1314868

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

So are the amounts of £202 actually on the letter or did you make them up as well?

We don't know the alleged contravention(s) as yet however a higher rate Ealing PCN is £110 and the lower rate is £60.
I can't get to £202 or £404 by adding the permitted charges using those numbers as the starting points?


Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 05:42
Post #1314872

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 01:48) *
We don't know the alleged contravention(s) as yet however a higher rate Ealing PCN is £110 and the lower rate is £60.
I can't get to £202 or £404 by adding the permitted charges using those numbers as the starting points?

Given the location, they're likely MT PCNs.

ALL London MT are £130 I think.

Posted by: lashes1984 Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 05:53
Post #1314873

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

Many thanks Neil for doing so much efforts at this time of the hour for me. I highly appreciate it.

Growl.

So they might be partial PCN numbers. (1 digit and 2 letters short)

Let's see what others think tomorrow.


From my own dealings with Newlyn the reference numbers are a Newlyn Account Reference and not partial PCN numbers.

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 01:48) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Sorry I should have mentioned that these "Newlyn Ref" are proper 7 digit numbers and I made them up to 1234567 and 9999999 to explain them here and not to mention the right numbers on the public forum.

So are the amounts of £202 actually on the letter or did you make them up as well?

We don't know the alleged contravention(s) as yet however a higher rate Ealing PCN is £110 and the lower rate is £60.
I can't get to £202 or £404 by adding the permitted charges using those numbers as the starting points?


The OP didn't make them up as they are on the top right hand corner of the doc that was posted.

Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.

Posted by: hcandersen Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 08:10
Post #1314876

You either ignore or action.

Ignore
The debt collectors know where you are, so what possible advantage could ignoring the letter bring? I'm clearer about what risks go with such an approach rather than advantage.

Action
You have to engage with the enforcement process. You either pay or look to challenge. If paying at this stage is ruled out, then you must look to challenge.
But how?
You must contact the debt collectors or council. I suggest play a straight bat and get back to the debt collector who has NO idea whether the claim is genuine, all they know is that they've been commissioned by the council but know nothing about the preceding enforcement process. Contact them, do not be confrontational, just factual.
Re your letter, I know nothing of the parking charges (that's the term they've used in the letter) to which you refer. I have not received any communiction from your principal - the council- and your letter does not give me any detail. I need the penalty charge notice numbers please, what are they?

Straightforward, positive, non-confrontational. And get the name of the person before you go into detail, not afterwards.


With respect, minute examination of charges, numbers etc. gets us nowhere at present. Such detail might be needed down the line, but IMO what you must do now is play a straight bat: someone has sent you a demand in writing for £404 about which you know nothing. With respect, the normal response would have been to get back to the person and say what the hell is this about and not lose 2 weeks (and counting) without being any further forward.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 10:20
Post #1314896

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 22:16) *
Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.


I just checked online that "HERBERT ROAD in SOUTHALL" is a "NO ENTRY" road, but I don't remember using that road, I might be wrong though. Also found this post about Herbert road http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=96284

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 12:46
Post #1314923

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 11:20) *
I just checked online that "HERBERT ROAD in SOUTHALL" is a "NO ENTRY" road, but I don't remember using that road, I might be wrong though. Also found this post about Herbert road http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=96284

Yeah, we knew that a week ago Sandy.
You mustn't concern yourself with the contravention right now.

You need to concentrate on the fact that two PCN debts have been registered against you at the Court and we need to
identify their current status.

I don't recall anyone suggesting you ignore these, btw.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 09:10) *
You must contact the debt collectors or council. I need the penalty charge notice numbers please, what are they?

and I agree it should be Newlyns, not least because their phones are open today and Ealing are reportedly impossible
to contact at any time.

So, get on the phone Sandy and come back with the info.

Then we can move on to speaking with TEC on what action is needed - if any.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:12
Post #1314944

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 13:46) *
You need to concentrate on the fact that two PCN debts have been registered against you at the Court and we need to
identify their current status.


Thanks Neil.

Are we absolutely sure that this matter is already in Court?

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:25
Post #1314946

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:12) *
Are we absolutely sure that this matter is already in Court?

'Court' is misleading to Joe Public.

TEC is a big 'factory' processing thousands of PCN debts.

Councils pay a fee to 'register' a debt. It was £7, now £8.

Your £202 amounts include £7 - by working out. So yes, the debts are registered
with the Court - but a long while ago.

Phones open until 4pm !

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:38
Post #1314949

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:12) *
Are we absolutely sure that this matter is already in Court?

'Court' is misleading to Joe Public.

TEC is a big 'factory' processing thousands of PCN debts.

Councils pay a fee to 'register' a debt. It was £7, now £8.

Your £202 amounts include £7 - by working out. So yes, the debts are registered
with the Court - but a long while ago.

Phones open until 4pm !


Ok, I just finished my call with Newlyn and she provided me with the TWO PCNs (one contravention is 8 Dec 2015 and other one is at 2 Jan 2016, both at Herbert Road Southall)

the matter has already been reported to TEC Northampton and there is a Liability order against me and warrant of control link against my current address.

the Ealing council now contacted Newlyn to recover the money. They are due to visit my property on 18th Sep 2017 to take my car away sad.gif

Surprisingly Ealing council gave Newlyn my current address but why on earth they never sent any PCN to my current address.

As per Newlyn I need to contact Ealing council and find out to which address they sent the original PCN.

I also tried to find out the details of PCN from https://viewmypcn.co.uk/default.aspx, but they will take 24 hrs to give me any details of PCNs.

what a hell is this? sad.gif

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:57
Post #1314953

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:38) *
what a hell is this? sad.gif

Nothing unusual.

I'll post in a mo.

Posted by: peterguk Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:58
Post #1314954

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:38) *
I need to contact Ealing council and find out to which address they sent the original PCN.


The address on the V5C at the time.

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
I moved home in Dec 2015 and did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016 and I assume they might have sent the original PCN to the old address.


Presumably no mail forwarding service was used.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:58
Post #1314955

see attached pics of PCNs found from https://ealing.xrxpsc.com/OCM/

I will be back in an hour as need to rush for the groceries, shops will be closing down in an hr sad.gif

 

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:00
Post #1314956

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:58) *
see attached pics of PCNs found from https://ealing.xrxpsc.com/OCM/

As I said, NOT important right now.

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:12
Post #1314958

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:38) *
They are due to visit my property on 18th Sep 2017 to take my car away sad.gif
I'll come back to that in a while

Surprisingly Ealing council gave Newlyn my current address but why on earth they never sent any PCN to my current address.
First bit is interesting. Second is not; they use the address DVLA gave them and we know that's your fault

As per Newlyn I need to contact Ealing council and find out to which address they sent the original PCN.
Why? You know.

I'll give you a list of questions to ask TEC in a mo.

Then we'll start getting you prepared to complete applications to the Court to overturn these.

Next hour or so.

Posted by: Enceladus Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 16:10
Post #1314969

QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 06:53) *
The OP didn't make them up as they are on the top right hand corner of the doc that was posted.

Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.

OK so they're moving traffic. However the notice sent to the OP still does not add up.

£130=Penalty Charge
£65=Charge Certificate uplift
£7=Traffic Enforcement Centre registration
£202=sub-total=amount demanded per PCN

But we are beyond that stage. So there should be an additional "Compliance Stage" fee of £75 per PCN. That gets the total to £277 per PCN.
And possibly there is an additional "Enforcement Stage" fee of £235, if they have already made an enforcement visit.

Hence I would expect them to be demanding at least £544 and more likely £789.
Unless of course there is only one PCN in which case I would expect the demand to be for £512.

As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.



Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 16:43
Post #1314972

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 06:53) *
The OP didn't make them up as they are on the top right hand corner of the doc that was posted.

Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.

OK so they're moving traffic. However the notice sent to the OP still does not add up.

£130=Penalty Charge
£65=Charge Certificate uplift
£7=Traffic Enforcement Centre registration
£202=sub-total=amount demanded per PCN

But we are beyond that stage. So there should be an additional "Compliance Stage" fee of £75 per PCN. That gets the total to £277 per PCN.
Erm, hence we've queried why not and yes, that it's odd and why
And possibly there is an additional "Enforcement Stage" fee of £235, if they have already made an enforcement visit.
Today's phone call suggests they haven't.

Unless of course there is only one PCN in which case I would expect the demand to be for £512.
Which we've established there isn't.


QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.

Agree with the first but not the blue.
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

Please also ask the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.

If there are live warrants and it seems so, ask TEC to e-mail you the appropriate forms to complete.
These should be PE3 and PE2.
DO NOT try to complete them without input from us.

Meanwhile, you have some work to do.
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
Yes, you are right, I moved home in Dec 2015 and did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016


When, precisely/

FULL timescale:
Moved from ------------ (keep to yourself; you need not us) - evidence?
To ------------ (same) - evidence?
Wrote to DVLA ?
DVLA updated details on? (see 'docref' on V5C)

and, if you can get through to Ealing tomorrow, the dates the PCNs were issued (sent) (you only have contravention
dates so far)

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:01
Post #1314974

So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs
The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC
Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.
the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.
If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).

Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?

Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?

Posted by: peterguk Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:45
Post #1314981

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?


Correct.

Which doesn't agree with your earlier starement:

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
I did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016


So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:53
Post #1314984

QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:45) *
So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.


well my understanding was that I asked DVLA to change my address even before I moved in BUT I can not see any email to/from DVLA confirming when I asked DVLA to update my address sad.gif

what do you think is there any chance of me to overturn their decision ? I am really stressed .............

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:12
Post #1314991

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:53) *
I am really stressed .............

Understood but it doesn't help.
The detail we are looking at gives you a better chance of resolving this.

You haven't answered -
When you moved? etc.
Mail redirection?

Posted by: Enceladus Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:20
Post #1314995

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

I didn't say there might be more than two PCNs. The Newlyn letter has two differing reference numbers apparently relating to separate demands of £202 for a total of £404.
My point was that those numbers don't make sense, given the stage of enforcement we are at.


Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:20
Post #1314996

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):
Yes. Be patient, they will answer.

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs

The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
No, you need to state the PCN numbers to TEC
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC

Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.

the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.

If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).
Yes, sort of; wrong terminology. There has been no 'decision'.


Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:37
Post #1315001

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:20) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

I didn't say there might be more than two PCNs. The Newlyn letter has two differing reference numbers apparently relating to separate demands of £202 for a total of £404.
My point was that those numbers don't make sense, given the stage of enforcement we are at.

As was said a while back.
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:17) *
Ok, now it makes sense -

-- and it's very odd at the same time.

That's TWO PCNs.

So, although Newlyns are bailiffs, they are acting only as debt collectors in this, SO FAR.

I'm as curious as you but that notice is what we have, nothing more.

--
I'm stuck on a question I think you will know the answer to Enceladus:

Term of warrant.
Previously 12 months - from CPR 75.7 (5) and (6). Both now firmly scored through?

Has it been replaced with 9(1) of the 2013 Regs or am I misunderstanding?

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:55
Post #1315006

QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:45) *
So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.

Which in this case has no bearing on whether he could have made an in-time Stat Dec.

Even for the latter 2/1/16 contravention, a PCN issued shortly after would be unlikely to
go to his new address even if he had updated very promptly.

Another 'unlucky coincidence of timing', giving him a decent chance.

Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:39
Post #1315016

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

I can't handle this stress......my car is not worth more than 300£, shall I simply let them take away the car and be happy with it ?

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:40
Post #1315021

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:32) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

Great.
That couldn't be much better.

I'm out soon.

I'll explain further later.

Posted by: Incandescent Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:46
Post #1315025

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

I can't handle this stress......my car is not worth more than 300£, shall I simply let them take away the car and be happy with it ?

So taking your car away and selling it won't clear the debt. This means you'll still be liable for the amount of the debt that remains. People think that because the car got the PCN the car is what will be taken if bailiffs come round. Well, yes, they will take possessions that are easy to seize like a car, but can seize anything else to sell as well. So you won't be happy if they take the car as they can still collect more possessions off you, and each visit is charged for, so they can seize an awful lot before the debt is cleared to sell to pay themselves and the money owed to the council.

So fight on !

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:52
Post #1315029

Well, sorry if getting together the detail is stressing you but we're helping you to follow
your only option. All will become clear.

Many Councils can be unreasonable, including Ealing but

we won a similar case just last week and they were surprisingly helpful.

Posted by: hcandersen Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:02
Post #1315036

OP, listen to what you are being told and do not go off on flights of fancy about what you think is important e.g. did you commit the contraventions etc. You're in the firing line because you're the owner, the driver is irrelevant for the purposes of these proceedings.

You came to us.

We are advising.

Follow the advice would be my suggestion.

So at last you've engaged with the process and discovered that 2 PCNs were apparently issued for these offences. This is real progress.

Next question: did you receive any of the formal notices from the authority? Apparently not.
Were they issued? Apparently so, but we don't know, we haven't seen them. For the sake of argument, let's assume they were issued.
Were they served? Yes, this is presumed.
Did you receive them? No.
So what can you do?
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC. This is the next logical step IMO, not contacting the council. Apart from anything else, it stays the enforcement process until your request is considered which buys us all time.
Get on to the TEC website and download the stat dec and out of time forms.
Also, did you put in place mail re-direction arrangements OF ANY KIND when you moved?

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:32
Post #1315057

Nice summary from HCA.

Can I just comment on one aspect.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
not contacting the council.

My thinking there, on the off-chance he can actually speak to anyone, is that the posting dates of the
PCNs are very relevant to not being received and help us compile a comprehensive OOT and evidence
the impossibility of receipt.

I agree the OOT itself is the priority though.

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 00:09
Post #1315076

Sandy. Hang in there.
You've actually done very well answering the questions: We see lots of people ask, then panic when they realise a bit of effort is required.
We never hear from again but the end result for them can only be bad.
So well done for sticking with it.

Just those checks with TEC tomorrow (and Council if you can get through - but don't spend too long bothering with them)
and we are at the point we can tell you what you need to do.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC.

Let's explain.

If a postal PCN is issued and the Council don't get a reply or payment, they increase the penalty by 50%
and serve Charge Certificate giving you 14 further days to pay.
In your case, PCN £130 +50% = £195.
If they still don't get payment then they register the debt with TEC, costing and adding £7 (in your older case).
They can then serve a final notice, the Order for Recovery, now for the total £202, giving you another 21 days to pay.

BUT the law recognises that letters/notices sometimes don't get delivered or reach the right person.
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

The problem is, some people, like yourself, don't receive anything - because, unless they know otherwise at
the time, the Council can only use the address DVLA give them.
So without that final notice, the OfR, you had no opportunity to make the Statutory Declaration in that
21 days. This is called 'the normally permitted time'

So what you are about to do is to ask the Court TEC to file that Statutory Declaration late, i.e. after the
normally permitted time.
and this next bit is very important -
You need to ask only that and explain only why you could not do so earlier

We will help.
You may not realise it but you have a strong case, despite apparently not updating with DVLA promptly.
Based on the dates we have so far, it is highly unlikely that the PCNs could ever have gone to your
new address. Even if you had updated DVLA in December 2015 they would not have processed + the
issue of Christmas post + staff holidays at both DVLA and Council.

I hope that explains where we've been leading with this?

Just one more thing; I'll explain tomorrow.

Posted by: hcandersen Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 06:19
Post #1315086

Nice summary 😉


Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 09:51
Post #1315130

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:32) *
Nice summary from HCA.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 07:19) *
Nice summary 😉

If that was a bit ironic I didn't mean to sound patronising.
Yours was a needed focusing summary of the thread for OP.
Mine just expands on where we are likely going.

Talking amongst ourselves for a mo, any suggestion for wording?

It's crucially important*, in this case particularly, to sufficiently twist the Court Officers arm to accept despite
any possible objection.
My own thoughts are to concentrate on the timing of contraventions vs move and the impossibilty he could
have received these PCNs.


* otherwise 2 X fee later.

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 10:46
Post #1315143

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs
The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC
Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.
the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.
If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).

Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?

Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?


Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

She subsequently email me the PE2 and PE3 forms to fill and sign and send to them. Once TEC will receive PE2 and PE3, they will forward the same to Council confirming that I am challenging the PCNs and then it is upto the council what they will decide, normal turn around time is 11 weeks.

I further called Newlyn to find out how many PCNs are against my name and she confirmed only TWO. She further confirmed that they do not know whether these warrants are live or expired (Yesterday they confirmed that there are LIVE warrants against these PCNs). She further confirmed that bailiffs are not due to visit my property on 18th Sept and the information given to me yesterday was WRONG.
She also confirmed that they received the debt collection request from Council on 23 Aug 2017.

So what's the next step, Fill PE2 and PE3 for both PCNs and send to TEC asap?

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 10:56
Post #1315144

Well we suspected something was amiss.

But this still not clear.

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

What does 'authorised' mean?

I cannot imagine why you need to file PEs at the mo.

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:20
Post #1315150

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.

Agree with the first but not the blue.



I don't know exactly what 'authorised' means. You agreed to Enceladus in post#46 that I should ask the one in blue and that's what I asked TEC and she gave me the dates as 3 may 16 and 7 jul 2016. I think warrants were ISSUED on those dates and subsequently expired after ONE year on 3 may 2017 and 7 jul 2017.

what do we need to do now? please advice.

is that a good news that there are no live warrants against the PCNs or not a good news?



QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
Sandy. Hang in there.
You've actually done very well answering the questions: We see lots of people ask, then panic when they realise a bit of effort is required.
We never hear from again but the end result for them can only be bad.
So well done for sticking with it.

Just those checks with TEC tomorrow (and Council if you can get through - but don't spend too long bothering with them)
and we are at the point we can tell you what you need to do.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC.

Let's explain.

If a postal PCN is issued and the Council don't get a reply or payment, they increase the penalty by 50%
and serve Charge Certificate giving you 14 further days to pay.
In your case, PCN £130 +50% = £195.
If they still don't get payment then they register the debt with TEC, costing and adding £7 (in your older case).
They can then serve a final notice, the Order for Recovery, now for the total £202, giving you another 21 days to pay.

BUT the law recognises that letters/notices sometimes don't get delivered or reach the right person.
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

The problem is, some people, like yourself, don't receive anything - because, unless they know otherwise at
the time, the Council can only use the address DVLA give them.
So without that final notice, the OfR, you had no opportunity to make the Statutory Declaration in that
21 days. This is called 'the normally permitted time'

So what you are about to do is to ask the Court TEC to file that Statutory Declaration late, i.e. after the
normally permitted time.
and this next bit is very important -
You need to ask only that and explain only why you could not do so earlier

We will help.
You may not realise it but you have a strong case, despite apparently not updating with DVLA promptly.
Based on the dates we have so far, it is highly unlikely that the PCNs could ever have gone to your
new address. Even if you had updated DVLA in December 2015 they would not have processed + the
issue of Christmas post + staff holidays at both DVLA and Council.

I hope that explains where we've been leading with this?

Just one more thing; I'll explain tomorrow.


Hello Neil,

this is a fantastic post very helpful for novice like me, somehow I missed that post earlier.

You are a real GEM and a great asset to this forum I must say.

Many thanks for all your advice. really appreciate it.

Cheers

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:41
Post #1315159

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:20) *
I don't know exactly what 'authorised' means. I think warrants were ISSUED on those dates and subsequently expired after ONE year on 3 may 2017 and 7 jul 2017.

what do we need to do now? please advice.

is that a good news that there are no live warrants against the PCNs or not a good news?

Sounds good until we know anything bad.

Authorised could mean that - or could just mean the debts were only 'registered' on those dates and no
warrants ever applied for?

So, if you can try >

Ask when each debt was 'registered'.

and
If Council later applied for warrants and if so when.

--

To explain, a bit I missed from my earlier explanation.

When the 21 days allowed by the OfR expires, is when the Council can ask for a warrant to be authorised.
They tend to do that then or shortly after. So we should see about 4-8 weeks between registration and warrant.

TEC Customer Services staff are helpful but not legally trained and vary in their level of knowledge and, as
Enceladus alluded to earlier, how far they'll look.

Sometimes, as a bemused member of the public, you have to tell them which bit is important that you need to know.
Odd isn't it.

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:55
Post #1315178

Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.

I'm just concerned that filing an OOT at the mo, may, in these most unusual circumstances,
help the Council.
If we do and they don't contest it then this follows >

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

But now we think they may not have current authority to collect - so we don't want new PCNs;
We want it written off entirely biggrin.gif

I'm out soon but look forward to hearing the latest news.

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:22
Post #1315188

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.


trying hard from last more than 45 mins but no one is answering the call on TEC sad.gif

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:34
Post #1315195

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:22) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.


trying hard from last more than 45 mins but no one is answering the call on TEC sad.gif

Maybe busier afternoons.
They have a broken queue feedback that normally tells you your position - but not at mo.

I got through in under a minute the other day, at 11am.

Did you understand my comment?

I'm loathe to delay any action we might take and put you at risk but I seriously think we may not
have to.

I'm trying to talk with someone with back door to Newlyn - but they are currently in a meeting
with Govt. on exactly this atrocious system!

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:49
Post #1315198

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
I'm just concerned that filing an OOT at the mo, may, in these most unusual circumstances,
help the Council.
If we do and they don't contest it then this follows >
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.


Yes I understood above bit.

But now we think they may not have current authority to collect - so we don't want new PCNs;
We want it written off entirely biggrin.gif

Couldn't understand "they may not have current authority to collect" and how we can write off entirely?

I'm out soon but look forward to hearing the latest news.


Still no luck with TEC

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:57
Post #1315202

Well, if they did have warrants and they've expired there's nothing they can do, that I know of, to
collect the debts.
It would explain why Newlyns act as debt collectors (no power) and are not asking the statutory fees on
top, that they are entitled to if acting as bailiffs.

At the mo, it appears to be a try-on, reliant on your goodwill.

But I will keep pressing my Newlyn contact.

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:09
Post #1315210

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:41) *
Ask when each debt was 'registered'. - They were registered on 25 Feb 2016 and 29 Apr 2016
and
If Council later applied for warrants and if so when.

Council applied for "Certificate of Bailiff" instead of warrants - does that makes sense?


She also said bailiff wont turn at your property as Warrants are now expired.

She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:16
Post #1315212

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:09) *
She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

Oh! New one on me. As far as I know, they can't. I'm off to check that!

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:47
Post #1315221

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:16) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:09) *
She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

Oh! New one on me. As far as I know, they can't. I'm off to check that!

I've found a Civil Procedure Rule stating they can extend warrants (new to me) but they have to apply before
an existing warrant expires. CPR 84.5.

I'm also still curious about the original life of warrants; the question I asked Enceladus earlier.
That is, the 12 month starting point in CPR 75.7, now firmly scored through but tallying with the info
from TEC Sandy got today -
vs
The possible reason it's scored through being the introduction of the Taking Control Regs, where, if I'm
reading correctly, 9 (1) cites a later starting point?

Members thoughts welcome - actually, begged.

Links.
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part75#IDAGQ0HC
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part-84enforcement-by-taking-control-of-goods#84.5
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1894/regulation/9/made


Posted by: Neil B Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 22:33
Post #1315383

Just bumping you to top hoping for further opinions Sandy.

I haven't been able to speak to anyone yet.

Posted by: hcandersen Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 07:58
Post #1315409

@NeilB, no irony, good piece of work.

I think we're getting hung up on the OP's misuse of 'authorised', it seems clear that the position is:

Two outstanding PCNs;
No live warrants;
Debt collectors engaged by the authority i.e. they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process.

OP, IMO, stop dealing with the players individually and write to the authority, copy to Newlyn and TEC:

Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:35
Post #1315415

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 23:33) *
Just bumping you to top hoping for further opinions Sandy.

I haven't been able to speak to anyone yet.


Thanks Neil, Highly appreciate your efforts!

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:50
Post #1315419

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Debt collectors engaged by the authority i.e. they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process.


what does it mean "they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process."?
what is the prescribed procedure?

Posted by: hcandersen Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 12:39
Post #1315505

The procedure is service of statutory notices, including Order for Recovery - which is when the TEC first get involved- followed by a warrant to be executed by authorised bailiffs. It's a legal process and bailiffs are authorised and regulated and recover their own costs through charges set by regulations.

I can call myself a 'debt collector ', it's a meaningless concept.

And as there's no warrant the 'debt collector' cannot seize property, all they can do is huff and puff.

Hence for the authority to re-engage with the prescribed process. They could do this in several ways, including rewinding the process to the PCN stage and inviting reps within a specified and extended period.

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 18:19
Post #1315613

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 13:39) *
The procedure is service of statutory notices, including Order for Recovery - which is when the TEC first get involved- followed by a warrant to be executed by authorised bailiffs. It's a legal process and bailiffs are authorised and regulated and recover their own costs through charges set by regulations.

I can call myself a 'debt collector ', it's a meaningless concept.

And as there's no warrant the 'debt collector' cannot seize property, all they can do is huff and puff.

Hence for the authority to re-engage with the prescribed process. They could do this in several ways, including rewinding the process to the PCN stage and inviting reps within a specified and extended period.


Many thanks for the information hcanderson.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 22:29
Post #1315654

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.

The only thing I would add - in red ? Or similar - because I've made the sentence as a whole a bit too long.

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 08:34
Post #1315686

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 23:29) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.

The only thing I would add - in red ? Or similar - because I've made the sentence as a whole a bit too long.


so by writing this letter we are advising the authority to re-engage the prescribed procedure i.e. rewinding the process to the PCN stage and "inviting reps within a specified and extended period" and send bailiff etc to recover the cost. sad.gif

is this the best way to write off the fine of 404£ in entirety?

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:20
Post #1315703

Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters. You have no control or influence here. If they apply for a warrant then where would this leave you? You'd have to file an OOT application which would certainly be contested by the authority against a backdrop of someone who clearly ignores all correspondence. Probable outcome, TEC refuse your application which would leave you with an application to a District Judge at a minimum unrecoverable cost of £100 and additional enforcement agent's charges.

Respond
But to whom and how? IMO you want to convey the impression that this is all a complete surprise to you, therefore you would get back to the authority. The reason I suggest copying to the debt collector and TEC is because as regards the former it's polite and informative, why would you want to be aggressive or antagonistic? As regards the latter, if the authority were to apply for a warrant then you have a marker in your file which shows you to be a responsible but confused motorist.

You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.

Realistic expectations.

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:06
Post #1315711

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:20) *
Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters. You have no control or influence here. If they apply for a warrant then where would this leave you? You'd have to file an OOT application which would certainly be contested by the authority against a backdrop of someone who clearly ignores all correspondence. Probable outcome, TEC refuse your application which would leave you with an application to a District Judge at a minimum unrecoverable cost of £100 and additional enforcement agent's charges.

Respond
But to whom and how? IMO you want to convey the impression that this is all a complete surprise to you, therefore you would get back to the authority. The reason I suggest copying to the debt collector and TEC is because as regards the former it's polite and informative, why would you want to be aggressive or antagonistic? As regards the latter, if the authority were to apply for a warrant then you have a marker in your file which shows you to be a responsible but confused motorist.

You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.

Realistic expectations.


Many thanks for explaining the options, appreciate it.

With regards to "You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.", When I called TEC on last 2 occasions, they advised me to fill PEs forms (TEC email me the PE2 and PE3 forms) and email it to them asap, which they will forward to Ealing Council and tell them the PCNs have been challenged.

so I am bit confused why I can not submit an OOT now?

Point NeilB was making that we should not fill the PEs forms now as if we do that Council might re-issue the PCNs and we end up paying 130£ fine (65£ per PCN) and hence do something to write off the fine of 404£ entirely (not sure how this is possible though)

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:29
Post #1315713

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:06) *
do something to write off the fine of 404£ entirely (not sure how this is possible though)

Was the sentence I added in red.
They have had every chance to collect while holding warrants for a whole year.
Bailiffs have no difficulty in finding new addresses.

So what happened here?
I'm gonna guess ---- Ealing applied for warrants, then forgot to allocate a bailiff to them.
Hence, they cocked up and continuing now is unreasonable.


QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:34) *
so by writing this letter we are advising the authority to re-engage the prescribed procedure i.e. rewinding the process to the PCN stage and "inviting reps within a specified and extended period" and send bailiff etc to recover the cost. sad.gif

No.
If somehow the matter were reset to PCN then payment @£65 per would be available or make reps.
So where do you see bailiffs getting involved?

BUT
@ HCA
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:20) *
Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters.

Re the bold above.

1/. Notices? PCNs? Is it not way too late, i.e. beyond 6 month limit?

2/. Despite what TEC have apparently said I can't find any facility for issue of second warrants.
Extensions, yes (too lete now); new warrants on same debts, no.

I'm in agreement with HCA you should do something and, broadly, that is -

tickle the monkey and see what dance it does.

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:11
Post #1315729

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:06) *
With regards to "You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.", When I called TEC on last 2 occasions, they advised me to fill PEs forms (TEC email me the PE2 and PE3 forms) and email it to them asap, which they will forward to Ealing Council and tell them the PCNs have been challenged.

so I am bit confused why I can not submit an OOT now?

I think I mentioned earlier, the limitations of TEC CS staff.
99% of people phoning them have live warrants against them and bailiffs threatening.
You, in this most unusual situation, have neither. TEC will be as bemused as you and us.

So short answer is, it was all they could think of.

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 13:07
Post #1315756

OP, TEC have no status in this matter at present. But for the sake of argument, let's say you submitted an OOT application. TEC would always invite the authority to object, so in a way you would be contacting the authority but in a roundabout and opaque manner.

My reference to 'notices' was generic and was intended to capture all legal documents, including notices from bailiffs.

And if you write to the authority and they either cannot apply for a warrant on procedural grounds, or won't, what have you lost?

Up to you. On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:24
Post #1315781

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:07) *
On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

Yup.

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:21
Post #1315850

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 15:24) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:07) *
On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

Yup.


Thanks for all the replies.

As per your suggestions, I am going to write the below letter to Ealing Council, TEC and Newlyn. Do I need to change anything in the letter content?


"
Dear Sir/Madam,

PCNs ********* & *********;
VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated 29 August 2017, received by me on 01 Septemeber 2017.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I further investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but never received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Yours Sincerely
Sandy
[My address]
"

Ealing Council :
Penalty Charge Notice
Ealing Council, PO Box 46264, Ealing, W5 2UN

TEC:
5th Floor
St Katharine's House
21-27 St Katharine's Street
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN1 2LH

Newlyn:
Newlyn Debt Collection Ltd
PO Box 933,
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN1 9DX

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:32
Post #1315923

Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.

Posted by: sandygarg Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:00
Post #1316020

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 20:32) *
Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.


you mean proof of posting i.e. receipt of pastage?

Posted by: sandygarg Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 08:16
Post #1316274

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:00) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 20:32) *
Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.


you mean proof of posting i.e. receipt of pastage?



3 letters posted this morning, lets see what's the response like, if any. Will keep you posted.

Many thanks once again Neil and Hcanderson for the valuable inputs.

Posted by: sandygarg Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 08:15
Post #1322734

Hi,

Received the below letter from TEC today along with PE2 and PE3 forms.

Please advice what to do now?

Thanks

 

Posted by: Enceladus Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:17
Post #1322754

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

I suppose you could re-confirm with the TEC that the warrants have expired and have never been re-authorised (sealed) against your current address
Absent live warrants then the bailiff and the Council have no legal power to collect the debts. The letter you have is an out of proper process letter that is intended to intimidate you. It's worth precisely one sheet of junk A4, used at that. It has no legal standing at all.
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:50) *
Searched on Google for a succinct explanation of the difference between a bailiff and a debt collector. This was on the https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/debt-collection/bailiffs-and-debt-collectors-differences.aspx.
QUOTE
What's a bailiff?
Nowadays bailiffs are officially called enforcement agents. However, many of us still refer to them as bailiffs.
A bailiff or enforcement agent has legal powers to collect a debt. Some bailiffs work on behalf of private companies, some are self-employed and some work for the council.
Bailiffs collect things such as County Court judgments (CCJs), council tax arrears, parking fines, and child maintenance arrears.
Bailiffs have to legal right to visit your property, and to remove and sell your goods to pay off a debt. These powers mean that these kinds of debts are more of a priority to stay on top of than other debts.

What's a debt collector?
A debt collector works on behalf of a creditor or debt collection agency. They can also be called a doorstep collector or a field agent.
Sometimes a creditor letter will mention having a debt collector visit your home. But the likelihood of this happening is actually quite small.
This could be because collection agents can’t actually take anything from your property like a bailiff can. The most they can do is ask you to make a payment arrangement on the debt. The key word here is ask, not force.


Posted by: sandygarg Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:34
Post #1322757

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.


I suppose you could re-confirm with the TEC that the warrants have expired and have never been re-authorised (sealed) against your current address
Absent live warrants then the bailiff and the Council have no legal power to collect the debts. The letter you have is an out of proper process letter that is intended to intimidate you. It's worth precisely one sheet of junk A4, used at that. It has no legal standing at all.
So to answer you question I wouldn't do anything further.


Enceladus,

Many thanks for your reply.

I am now on hold with TEC from last 10 mins and will be confirming about the expiry of PCNs in question.

Cheers
Sandy

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:47
Post #1322786

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

I agree.

TEC are just repeating the only thing they know, as I explained in post #87.

Your letter was passed to a lowly clerk who has no understanding of the situation.

You should be far more interested in any reply you get from the Council.

Posted by: sandygarg Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 14:46
Post #1323130

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

I agree.

TEC are just repeating the only thing they know, as I explained in post #87.

Your letter was passed to a lowly clerk who has no understanding of the situation.

You should be far more interested in any reply you get from the Council.


Many thanks Neil.

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:38
Post #1331793

Just received a call from Newlyn re the PCN and debt. I nicely asked them to write to me but she pressed that it must be resolved on the phone. I asked them why, she said because writing letters causes delays and If I wont talk to her NOW then matter will go to court and people will come to visit my address and take my personal belongings etc to recover the debt.

She then forcefully started asking me to confirm my address and other details, which I refused to give. I had to disconnect the phone as I was at work and couldn't talk for too long.

Received text message from NEWLYN just now
"To PREVENT COURT ACTION which can result in either a WARRANT OF CONTROL BEING ISSUED, CCJ, ATTACHMENT TO EARNINGS OR BENEFITS or BANKRUPTCY, call NEWLYN urgently on 01604 625130, Do not text."

please advise what shall I do now?

Posted by: John U.K. Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:53
Post #1331795

QUOTE
please advise....


Hopefully Neil B will pick up on this. Have you contacted Bailiff Online?

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 14:34
Post #1331819

We have to be cautious what we advise but I'm tempted to say they are just trying it on.
By their own words they clearly don't currently have a warrant and, by my reading of regs, etc. can't see how they'll
get one.
IF they can even get anything from TEC, we deal with it when it happens.

I guess Ealing have ignored your letter? I'd be hammering into them from every direction to
get a response on this harassment.

No special knowledge needed there; just get through to them!

Posted by: sandygarg Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:57
Post #1332093

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 14:34) *
I guess Ealing have ignored your letter? I'd be hammering into them from every direction to
get a response on this harassment.

No special knowledge needed there; just get through to them!


Yes Ealing council ignored our letter so far.

Great, I will write to Ealing council to ask NEWLYN to stop harassing me.

Once again many thanks for the prompt reply.

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 16:21
Post #1332123

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 14:34) *
I guess Ealing have ignored your letter? I'd be hammering into them from every direction to
get a response on this harassment.

No special knowledge needed there; just get through to them!


Yes Ealing council ignored our letter so far.

Great, I will write to Ealing council to ask NEWLYN to stop harassing me.

Once again many thanks for the prompt reply.

I think you need to address to someone of substance in the Council.

I can't recall if you've said you are local?
Asking your Councillor to help maybe? (if Ealing).
No detail other than very general, as they are not allowed to intervene in decisions
but you can ask them to ensure your letters are dealt with and query, on your behalf,
why previous ignored.
Just be very clear that is all you are asking them to do.

If not Ealing, then identify the Councillor with Transport (or similar) portfolio (at Ealing) and
ask them same.

Failing that, something like Head of Finance, personally, with your original questions re
threats from bailiff.

Posted by: Bailiff Advice Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 10:19
Post #1332253

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:20) *
You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.


What you have said above is actually incorrect and in fact, TEC still has a role to play. Furthermore, the correct procedure for Sandy is to Submit two Out of Time Statutory Declarations to TEC using forms PE2 & PE3. I will try to explain:

With warrants having a strict 12 month time limit, I am coming across more and more cases where local authorities are not writing their debts off and instead, are contracting with DEBT COLLECTION COMPANIES to recover the debt. Many times (as in this case, the local authority contract is awarded to the DEBT COLLECTION arm of an enforcement company (as is the case here...with Newlyn Debt Collection).

It is important to stress that the DEBT COLLECTION COMPANY cannot recover the debt by taking control of goods (and they are strictly forbidden to use ANPR to locate a vehicle).

The unpaid penalty has been registered as a debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre. The local authority has paid a fee of £7 for the registration. Once registered, the local authority are then permitted to request permission from TEC for a warrant to be issued allowing the LA use bailiffs to enforce the debt. The warrant has a ‘life’ of 12 months which runs from the date of the Notice of Enforcement .

In this particular case, the warrant has expired. However, the Order for Recovery (and with it, the debt registration has not expired).

The Order for Recovery is automatically revoked on condition that; within 21 days of receipt of the OfR, the debt is either paid in full….OR a Statutory Declaration (on Form PE3) is sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

If the motorist misses the 21 day period (as has happened here), she can still submit a Statutory Declaration but she must request permission to do so. She does this by completing another form called a PE2 (Application to file Statutory Declaration ‘Out of Time’).

To clarify, the debt is currently standing at £202. In order to get the penalty 'rewound' (to approx £60) a Statutory Declaration is required and, because the 21 day period has passed, Form PE2 (Application to file Statutory Declaration 'Out of Time' must also be submitted.

Posted by: Neil B Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 11:39
Post #1332273

Cautionary note for Sandy.

Having spoken to BA about this, it seems the Council may have more options than
we thought.
The 'threats' made by Newlyns might be based on substance.

CPR Rules 75.

See 75.9 - 75.11
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part75


--
I'm presently unclear on one or two lines in that re terminology.

Also unclear, where the Rules specify 'reason required', who would make the
decision on whether 'reasons' offered were accepted.

Posted by: hcandersen Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 12:09
Post #1332281

TEC's October letter shows their, shall we say, lack of understanding because there isn't a live warrant, contrary to their statement.

This would seem to confirm and support my thoughts that they have no role to play because they're all at sea without a warrant. And the only way for this to be re-issued is for the authority to re-engage with the process.

Posted by: Neil B Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 12:25
Post #1332283

TEC's involvement is that a debt is registered with them, and remains so.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 21:52
Post #1349202

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 12:25) *
TEC's involvement is that a debt is registered with them, and remains so.


Oh dear... I missed the conversation of 16 and 17th Nov. I do apology for that.

To my surprise I received another letter from Newlyn asking me to pay debt of 404£, I am seriously now sure how to deal with them anymore.

Please advice guys.

Many Thanks


 

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:00
Post #1349209

In a similar case we had some revised thinking on this.

Following some comment from an expert in these matters it seems the bailiff/Council do still have options.

I'll try and find the thread when I get a mo.

Posted by: sandygarg Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:08
Post #1349215

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:00) *
In a similar case we had some revised thinking on this.

Following some comment from an expert in these matters it seems the bailiff/Council do still have options.

I'll try and find the thread when I get a mo.


Thanks Neil, appreciate your help!

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:17
Post #1349216

Just found it - here! Post #105

Let me re-read it again - the link.

The advice I received was that you should make 'out of time' applications anyway.

That said, would TEC be able to process them?

I need to read again from the beginning when I get a mo.

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 22:34
Post #1349222

Found what memory jog I needed from early pages.

I know what I want to recommend and will post tomorrow when I get a mo.

Posted by: sandygarg Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 10:57
Post #1349294

Thanks Neil.

Posted by: Neil B Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:49
Post #1349381

I only have a few minutes so quick post.

I think I have to agree with BA's advice on 17th Nov; That is, you need to make PE2 'out of time' applications
and Stat Decs PE3.

This can, at least, stop the pestering by a currently powerless Newlyn.
It would, if successful, refer the matter to PCN stage, so £65 each to settle or dispute.

If you think about it both Newlyn and Council are 'locked' into this matter, trying to justify an
unpaid item on their books. They might actually be relieved and choose not to pursue further - you never know.

I checked the thread back last night and, imo, you have a fair chance of being successful anyway, IF we compile
your applications in a constructive way. That's very important and I have a lot more to say - later.

Meanwhile, you might want to download PE forms and read up on the process.
A recently completed case by 'Lumium' might make interesting reading. Scroll down and it's sometime in last month.

Laterz.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 11:42
Post #1349672

Morning.
Can you confirm you read last and understand what we are going to do (subject to
appropriate preparation).

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:23
Post #1349798

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 11:42) *
Morning.
Can you confirm you read last and understand what we are going to do (subject to
appropriate preparation).


Hi Neil,

Apology for late reply, I was travelling most of yesterday and today and will be back home tonight and go through the post by 'Lumium' as suggested.

Does it mean if our PE2 and PE3 are successful we still end up paying 130£ fine (£65 each PCN)?

Thanks

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:45
Post #1349813

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:23) *
Does it mean if our PE2 and PE3 are successful we still end up paying 130£ fine (£65 each PCN)?

Thanks

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:49) *
It would, if successful, refer the matter to PCN stage, so £65 each to settle or dispute.

If you think about it both Newlyn and Council are 'locked' into this matter, trying to justify an
unpaid item on their books. They might actually be relieved and choose not to pursue further - you never know.


Point is, if successful, it ends the hassle.

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:48
Post #1349817

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 14:49) *
A recently completed case by 'Lumium' might make interesting reading. Scroll down and it's sometime in last month.


Could not find Lumium case so far, instead found that you referred the same case at couple of threads started by IwonderWhy and Motoristinneed. Will keep looking.

Many Thanks for your help Neil.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:51
Post #1349820

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116425

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:08
Post #1349829

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:51) *
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116425


thanks, will look at it this eve, going underground now.

Appreciate your efforts Neil.

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 20:29
Post #1349910

I have now downloaded the PE2 & PE3 forms and read Lumlum post too, please advice how to fill the forms for both PCNs.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 21:01
Post #1349929

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 20:29) *
I have now downloaded the PE2 & PE3 forms and read Lumlum post too, please advice how to fill the forms for both PCNs.

This is where we have to get it spot on. Might take me a couple of days to find time.

What did you understand from the L case and what similarities did you notice?


Sorry if this sounds like a quiz but it's important you understand what we are doing.

Posted by: sandygarg Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 21:55
Post #1349951

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 21:01) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 20:29) *
I have now downloaded the PE2 & PE3 forms and read Lumlum post too, please advice how to fill the forms for both PCNs.



What did you understand from the L case and what similarities did you notice?





in both cases, PCNs were issued at old address and never received by the owner as owner never bother to update their V5C on time.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 22:41
Post #1349989

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 21:55) *
in both cases, PCNs were issued at old address and never received by the owner as owner never bother to update their V5C on time.

No, that's not the reason the PCNs were not received!

and neither is it for yours.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 23:59
Post #1350030

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 21:55) *
in both cases, PCNs were issued at old address and never received by the owner as owner never bother to update their V5C on time.

No, that's not the reason the PCNs were not received!

and neither is it for yours.

If you look at the contravention dates, shortly after you moved, even if you had notified DVLA promptly it
is highly unlikely DVLA would have updated by the time Ealing got your details from them.

This is the message that you need to get across to the Court.

Councils nearly always object and, when they do, the Court normally rejects your application.

In the L case I used particular tactics to prevent this; basically asking, indirectly, the Council to recognise the unfortunate
circumstances, rather than blaming them as many do.

In your case, I believe we can enhance your chances further but we'll come to that.

--
Is this making sense?

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:58
Post #1350072

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 23:59) *
Is this making sense?


Perfect. Thanks Neil.

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:15
Post #1350094

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:58) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 23:59) *
Is this making sense?


Perfect. Thanks Neil.

Good but I need to find time to get it right.
May be a couple of days.

Posted by: sandygarg Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:23
Post #1350096

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 09:58) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 23:59) *
Is this making sense?


Perfect. Thanks Neil.

Good but I need to find time to get it right.
May be a couple of days.


Fantastic, I highly appreciate your time and efforts and look forward for your reply.

Do you want me to do anything in the mean time?

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:31
Post #1350099

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 11:23) *
Do you want me to do anything in the mean time?

You can have a go at drafting it yourself, then I'll adjust. I find that easier.
That is, the details box on PE2.
Don't worry about space, we'll attach a separate sheet.

Although you are directly addressing the Court, you might note in the L case I aimed the
wording partly at the Council. (They get a copy from TEC, to decide if they want to oppose).

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