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Bailiffs did a visit. My mum paid up. Then this.
Trying2BHonest
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 20:32
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Okay.

My brother got a fine. We appealed, appeal was rejected. Then we appealed again, and this time no answer was given.

Instead we got passed onto bailiffs. And when they showed up one day, my mum simply paid them the full amount.

Now as far as I know this is my brother's problem. And everything in the home is my mum's, I mean everything.

They can't have taken anything right?

Anyways my mum paid and now we get this hand notice.
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post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 20:32
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Incandescent
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:24
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Much more information needed, like - what did your brother actually receive, a PCN ? Is he the registered keeper as per the V5C for the vehicle? Where does he live, is it the same as mother's house ? Was the V5C correct on the date of the contravention ? Have any house moves taken place, but V5C was not updated ?

Do be aware that it's now going to be mega-diffcult to get that money back, and you would inevitably have to pay out more money to a County Court judge. This is because you would have to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration, (which one depends on what the fine/penalty was issued for).

So please tell us all about the original fine. After your first, informal, reps were rejected, you should have received: -

1. Notice to Owner
2. Charge Certificate
3. Order for Recovery

all before bailiffs can be instructed. So three items of mail have gone astray. Commonest reason is failure to update the V5C for the vehicle.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:27
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DancingDad
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:27
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Also, if your mum paid, did she get a signed receipt?
And is this latest for the same PCN?
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Trying2BHonest
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 02:09
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:24) *
Much more information needed, like - what did your brother actually receive, a PCN ? Is he the registered keeper as per the V5C for the vehicle? Where does he live, is it the same as mother's house ? Was the V5C correct on the date of the contravention ? Have any house moves taken place, but V5C was not updated ?

Do be aware that it's now going to be mega-diffcult to get that money back, and you would inevitably have to pay out more money to a County Court judge. This is because you would have to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration, (which one depends on what the fine/penalty was issued for).

So please tell us all about the original fine. After your first, informal, reps were rejected, you should have received: -

1. Notice to Owner
2. Charge Certificate
3. Order for Recovery

all before bailiffs can be instructed. So three items of mail have gone astray. Commonest reason is failure to update the V5C for the vehicle.


Will follow with more details as requested.

Tbh it's not about getting the money back. More about why they are sending this when my mum already paid on my brother's behalf?
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DJ Lexy
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 04:24
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Are you sure he hasn't had two tickets? Check the reference numbers.
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Neil B
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:01
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edit

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:32


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:22
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We're off message here.

Control of Goods shows clearly that the enforcing authority is Tower Hamlets and contravention is waiting/loading in restricted street, in this case Fieldgate Street E1.

OP's concern is not return of sums paid but that this was served after sums were paid and would his mother be harassed because of the agent's error.

First priorities:
Get paperwork for her payment, to what does it relate?
Is the CoG the same contravention?

CoG dated 9 Nov, so precious time has been lost. You must get back to the agents tomorrow, hopefully armed with above info.

Not that you would, but don't discuss matters to do with the contravention, just deal with your priority.
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Neil B
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:22) *
We're off message here.

Control of Goods shows clearly that the enforcing authority is Tower Hamlets and contravention is waiting/loading in restricted street, in this case Fieldgate Street E1.

Noted and edited.
Didn't read sideways doc.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Trying2BHonest
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:22) *
We're off message here.

Control of Goods shows clearly that the enforcing authority is Tower Hamlets and contravention is waiting/loading in restricted street, in this case Fieldgate Street E1.

OP's concern is not return of sums paid but that this was served after sums were paid and would his mother be harassed because of the agent's error.

First priorities:
Get paperwork for her payment, to what does it relate?
Is the CoG the same contravention?

CoG dated 9 Nov, so precious time has been lost. You must get back to the agents tomorrow, hopefully armed with above info.

Not that you would, but don't discuss matters to do with the contravention, just deal with your priority.


But let's say they came. There is nothing that is his. Literally. Plus he is on disability benefit. As far as I know bailiffs have to pass him to a specialist team for benefit claimants no? Heard this on LBC

This post has been edited by Trying2BHonest: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:42
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Neil B
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 18:12
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No idea what you're talking about until you give us the detail.

--
Also, who owns/is RK of the vehicle concerned?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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The Rookie
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:10
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QUOTE (Trying2BHonest @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:40) *
There is nothing that is his. Literally. Plus he is on disability benefit. As far as I know bailiffs have to pass him to a specialist team for benefit claimants no?

Not really relevant that nothing is his if your Mum decided to pay, if she stood her ground they would have to show it was his, where they made aware of his disability benefit status? If nit how do you expect them to know?


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Trying2BHonest
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 18:16
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Okay guys, let me clarify the situation here now, hopefully.

I have been able to gather some details. Its hard because it wasn't my PCN, and I have to keep asking a load of questions and searching for documents before I can post back. So thank you all for your patience!

The Newlyn notice is for ANOTHER PCN, not the one my mum had already paid for on the doorstep to the bailiffs.

So I guess I am going to have to rephrase the original question. The PCN has been sent to bailiff stage, my brother has a disability, and my mum is now really scared the bailiffs will be knocking on the door again, with a load of inflated charges.

I have taken a look at the original contravention, and it does look like my brother is in the wrong. But he thought it was alright because in Tower Hamlets you can park on double yellow with a blue badge. Only problem is as you can see from the pictures, he was quiet some way away from the kerb.

I have attached the paperwork that I have so far managed to find. As far as I am aware no notice to owner was served. Or if it was it was lost in the post. Furthermore no appeal was made, I'd like to give a really compelling excuse here as to why none was made, but really I do not know why.

I have attached the pictures, and do not really know what else more to say or ask.

Thank you so much guys/ladies!

P.s. on a side note

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:10) *
QUOTE (Trying2BHonest @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:40) *
There is nothing that is his. Literally. Plus he is on disability benefit. As far as I know bailiffs have to pass him to a specialist team for benefit claimants no?

Not really relevant that nothing is his if your Mum decided to pay, if she stood her ground they would have to show it was his, where they made aware of his disability benefit status? If nit how do you expect them to know?


You are correct. I am only asking for clarification on the issue. What should my mum have said? And what should THEY have done, legally?

Yes my mum should have stood her ground, but she was coming back from a school run, I was at work, hence she did not want to call me. The man was blocking her way back into the house, thats what she told me.

I did not know anything about bailiffs till I got home later that day.

This post has been edited by Trying2BHonest: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 18:17
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:12
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You seriously parked there? half your car sticking out into a junction?

It's one thing parking on the side of the road, but putting your car there, blocking other cars on the junction is just selfish. I know this area quite well and fed up with inconsiderate people who just stop anywhere and block the carriageway.

The other day some driver decides to unload his passengers, there's a empty bay he could drive straight in, no need to even parallel park, but he stops in the middle of the road blocking me and two cars behind me. I get irate and beep my horn and his passenger looks back at me with a dirty look like I am in the wrong.

This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:18
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peterguk
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:44
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:12) *
You seriously parked there? half your car sticking out into a junction?

It's one thing parking on the side of the road, but putting your car there, blocking other cars on the junction is just selfish. I know this area quite well and fed up with inconsiderate people who just stop anywhere and block the carriageway.

The other day some driver decides to unload his passengers, there's a empty bay he could drive straight in, no need to even parallel park, but he stops in the middle of the road blocking me and two cars behind me. I get irate and beep my horn and his passenger looks back at me with a dirty look like I am in the wrong.


How does your post assist the OP?


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Trying2BHonest
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:12) *
You seriously parked there? half your car sticking out into a junction?

It's one thing parking on the side of the road, but putting your car there, blocking other cars on the junction is just selfish. I know this area quite well and fed up with inconsiderate people who just stop anywhere and block the carriageway.

The other day some driver decides to unload his passengers, there's a empty bay he could drive straight in, no need to even parallel park, but he stops in the middle of the road blocking me and two cars behind me. I get irate and beep my horn and his passenger looks back at me with a dirty look like I am in the wrong.


I agree with you. Minicabs stopping bang in the centre as they please, take an age to load etc. Silly parked cars etc.

But this was not a junction, as you claim to know the area. It was just a gate that was blocked by say less than 1/3rd.

Hence I also agreed with the ticket after seeing the pictures and shook my head. Lol.

I dunno how relevant it is but I've uploaded a screenshot of street view to show where the car was parked. It's scribbled in red.



This post has been edited by Trying2BHonest: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:56
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Incandescent
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:06
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OP, It's very nice to see someone fighting so hard for their brother, and their mum too. However, whilst I hope you can get some settlement of this matter, I have to say that if it were me, I'd be taking a hammer and chisel to your brother's head to try and knock some sense into it, (metaphorically, of course !!). You're now on a 2nd PCN with bailiffs at the door, and who knows how many more on the way. Whilst we can advise on the legal processes and point out council errors and unlawful acts, we can't sort out problems like this. Would that we could !!

There may well be special arrangements where bailiffs are dealing with people with mental health issues, but I don't know what they might be, hopefully somebody will know on here. If not, you may care to contact: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

They are normally very helpful, and for a small fee will assist you with preparing court documents, as you're at the stage when these may be necessary. Unfortunately those running the civil law processes will be thinking that if a person can drive a car (e.e. pass a driving test), he/she is knowledgeable about road signs and markings.

BTW, you still haven't told us who is the registered keeper of the car.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:15
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Trying2BHonest
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:19
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:06) *
OP, It's very nice to see someone fighting so hard for their brother, and their mum too. However, whilst I hope you can get some settlement of this matter, I have to say that if it were me, I'd be taking a hammer and chisel to your brother's head to try and knock some sense into it, (metaphorically, of course !!). You're now on a 2nd PCN with bailiffs at the door, and who knows how many more on the way. Whilst we can advise on the legal processes and point out council errors and unlawful acts, we can't sort out problems like this. Would that we could !!

There may well be special arrangements where bailiffs are dealing with people with mental health issues, but I don't know what they might be, hopefully somebody will know on here. If not, you may care to contact: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

They are normally very helpful, and for a small fee will assist you with preparing court documents, as you're at the stage when these may be necessary.

BTW, you still haven't told us who is the registered keeper of the car.


Court documents? unsure.gif

Lol at the chisel and hammer remark. I laughed myself when I saw the pictures of how the car was parked.

The registered keeper is Motability. The vehicle is a lease to my brother through the Motability scheme.

Also I've since found out my mum was the driver at the time, blink.gif , I guess that explains a lot... Just kidding lol.

But yeah she was the one that parked like that. And yes she's named on the insurance, incase anyone is wondering that.

Maybe that's why she paid up the first time. I am pretty sure these are the only 2 PCNs, I hope. One has been paid.

This post has been edited by Trying2BHonest: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:20
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Enceladus
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:44
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The problem you have is that the Order for Recovery gave you, or rather gave the Registered Keeper, until the 2nd September to either pay £203 to the Council or to submit a Witness Statement.

It appears you did neither. If as you mention you did not receive a Notice to Owner, which would have been sent to the name and address of the registered keeper as held by the DVLA, then why didn't you submit the WS? That would have got the process reset to the NTO stage.

Your immediate priority is to get the bailiff action frozen and reset. So now you have to come up with a good plausible reason for being late. What is it?

I can also see in your photos double yellow dashes on the kerb by the DYLs. These indicate a 24 x 7 'No Loading' restriction. The Blue Badge does not provide any exemption where a 'No Loading' restriction is in force. So your brother was never allowed to park there. That said you later posted a Google Street View that doesn't show the yellow dashes. The view you posted is from July 2012, not either of the 2018 views which do show the dashes. Why did you do that?

On this forum honest and complete disclosure of the facts is key.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:47
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zwekk
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 23:15
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Edit: see next post

QUOTE (Trying2BHonest @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:19) *
The registered keeper is Motability. The vehicle is a lease to my brother through the Motability scheme.


If (and only if) that's the case, I believe that Motability would be liable for either paying the council or filling back the paperwork with the address of the leasee (the brother) if (in the very likely case) that such a contract clause exists. Is the address with Motability up to date? How did the Bayliffs obtain the address?

Note that Motability could be the owner and not the registered keeper, as in the case of of a bank owning a car whose registered keeper is the customer who bought it with financing.


This post has been edited by zwekk: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 23:58
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Enceladus
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 23:56
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Motability retain the original V5c for their vehicles. They will provide a photocopy on demand. However the V5c has the name & address of the Motability account holder as Registered Keeper albeit endorsed with a six digit Motability account reference.
Hence the VQ5 response from the DVLA to a VQ4 request from an Enforcement Authority for RK details returns the name & address of the Motability account holder just as it would with a private vehicle.
So all of the documents would have been directly addressed to the OP's brother (in this case) as RK. Nothing would have been sent to Motability.


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