UKPC: residents revolt VS going it alone Options

[ipsy_dipsy]

Hi everyone,

Short story:

My situation is similar to Mr Roger Davey who was forced to take out an injunction against UKPC. I have been having troubles with UKPC for the last two years and now I’m seriously contemplating about taking them to court. I would like to believe I’m having a pretty solid case. However, before jumping to action, I spoke to some of my neighbours and realized that many of them had had similar troubles with UKPC and only selectively bothered to challenge PCNs. By reading tons of materials on this subject on various websites, I’m at the point of realizing that all of the UK is fighting these PPC bandits on a ‘one-off’ basis, i.e. individually by coming to these forums, wasting hundreds of hours of our precious time, hoping that in the end we would sort out our individual cases. This should not be like that because sorting out one trouble at a time isn’t going to solve things at the root. This is a systemic rot and PPCs are exploiting existing grey areas of legislation by preying on gullible people.

Now, rather than going it alone I’m considering asking my neighbours (about 80 properties on the estate) if they are willing to join me. As an incentive, I’m thinking of putting something along these lines: “if you or any of your authorized visitors received PCNs from UKPC while parking in your parking bays you can get all of your money back. No commitment required. Please contact me for further details”. In this day and age it’s been proven (#MeToo first comes to mind) that the power of one can be easily multiplied x100000 if done correctly. Fair enough, I’m only talking about one small residential estate, but still it's all about setting a precedent.

I wonder if this is something that has been done before? Your advice would be greatly appreciated.



Longer version:

Basically, I’m finding myself in a situation where I have to prove to a trespasser that I have legal rights to enjoy peacefully my property!

The standard scenario for the last two years has been that UKPC would issue a PCN (by trespassing on my land), I would then nicely contact our managing agent and get them to cancel that PCN. Then, I would kindly ask the managing agent to obtain a written confirmation from UKPC that such ‘wrongdoing’ won’t happen again, and then after some time we would be back to square one with another PCN on my windscreen.

At the end of last year I got a ticket from UKPC and on this occasion they would not back off (presumably feeling more confident due to Beavis case). We recently changed our managing agent to another company that is completely incompetent when it comes to parking wardens. In the meantime, in relation to the latest PCN, my formal appeal via UKPC website failed (obviously), my POPLA appeal didn’t bring any success either (not that I held my breath). UKPC is now threatening me with passing on my details to their debt collectors.

Our development is a mix of houses and flats. My property is a freehold house with private parking included. All flats have leases with allocated private parking bays scattered around the estate. In addition, we are all shareholders of the managing company that co-owns communal areas on the estate. None of our Land Transfers and Deeds of Covenants has any restrictions on parking other than ‘using for purposes for which they are intended’. As for Primacy of contract, all Transfers predate arrangements between the managing agent and UKPC. Also I got hold of unredacted version of UKPC contract and it has got tons of serious holes in it.

I can of course pay up and forget about it, but that’s not the point - UKPC will come back again and again, as it has been proven. Managing company directors have no spine whatsoever. I’ve already drafted LBCCC to include UKPC, landowner, managing company, and both managing agents as defendants, holding them jointly and severally liable. I thought I might check on here if this is a good idea going for a ‘bulk’ court action instead? Thank you.

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[ipsy_dipsy]

Ipsy_dipsy

Theoretically, the articles of association may well allow a company to hire a company to run "parking patrol services" and to do all sorts of other things, but that is not the be all and end all of the matter.

Your favourite supermarket's articles of association clearly allow it to sell groceries, but they cannot sell groceries from your parking space.

So, if there is nothing about parking in the documentation governing the management company's relationship with you, the management company would be acting beyond its powers to impose parking patrol services on you.

Both the articles of association and the other documentation have to be enabling in this respect.

The management company and/or the managing agents may well claim that they are able to introduce regulations for the benefit of residents, but a ticketing and charging parking regime benefits no-one apart from the parking contractor (and anyone to whom they pay backhanders). This sort of predatory regime almost certainly does not prevent others parking in residents' allocated spaces and, if/when they do, the residents get nothing to compensate them for the inconvenience of having to find and pay for somewhere else to park.

CoffeeAddict's words are wise. Very often, when volunteer directors are threatened with court action, their first reaction is to resign (wrongly thinking this will get them off the hook). If they all go, that really does open the way for the shareholders to appoint a new board at a general meeting.

Thank you again. This is an interesting perspective. I'm definitely more swayed towards this option as a first action. Although I'm still thinking that this is far from ideal - I'm basically shooting myself in the foot. If the directors are gone and nobody is to replace them, and the court action is against the company (I'm the shareholder of this company), there will be a mess on the estate, which will, with high probability, even lead to increased service charges in future, etc. Without knowing any details, the whole gang will be blaming me for this (I would, anyway). I'm pretty sure nobody would understand that I was only standing up for my rights to live in peace.

As a side note, a couple of days ago I was even thinking to include in my claims £30 which I paid for UKPC 'parking permit' a while ago. Just to sweeten myself a bit.

[The Slithy Tove]

As a side note, a couple of days ago I was even thinking to include in my claims £30 which I paid for UKPC 'parking permit' a while ago. Just to sweeten myself a bit.

So you paid for "permission" to park on your own property?!!?
You should demand it back on the basis that you were misled regarding its necessity and UKPC's "authority".

[ostell]

So they know full well that the residents have the parking spaces demised to them yet continue to get details from the DVLA. Perhaps a counterclaim if the go to court for the distress and harassment caused by the misuse of you personal data after they discovered the Registered Keeper was a resident and the still continued to use that data.

Get everybody to do, even retro speculatively, that and it could be expensive.

[cdon1975]

I have similar circumstances to yours, apart from the fact we didn't take a parking space with the flat within a development ( my partner bought it new back in 2012) - she was told there was " no need for a space" as not only did they cost 20,000 , but parking on the roads within the development were free and free of restrictions.
about 18 months later the Tennant management company decided to grant access to the roads to private parking companies , and thats when the free parking ended.
the nearest place to park in a 30 minute walk away !!!!

she has never bothered to drive, as she can't park anymore , and I also can't park. they are coming round at all hours waiting for the maximum amount of cars to be there .

most importantly there is NO mention of private roads or the word private within the lease. let alone a company buying the rights to issue tickets outside your own house.

parking will cost twenty thousand pounds . its almost like its turned into a prison camp. the wardens are aggressive, intimidating and its quite frankly a scam.

only today I approached one - he parked his car in someones eases bay to issue tickets!! I asked why he parked there, he instantly became aggressive said " is that your car" I said no- and he instantly inputted the number into his machine to issue a ticket- no grace period.. nothing.

it quite frankly has to stop.

[ipsy_dipsy]

I appreciate Rupert Williams of UKPC sees this as a game - he quite literally throws PCNs up against the wall and sees what sticks. I also appreciate that my life could have been much more relaxed if I, similarly to Rupert, looked at this whole 'sticking up the wall' as just a funny game-playing. It's impossible, though, because I'm basically finding myself in a position where I have to prove my innocence to the likes of UKPC. Looking at the average timeframe of sorting out a mess of one PCN (including court proceedings, hearings etc.) I might be looking at one year of my life put under complete stress! What for? Is that because Rupert has found this nice little niche / milking cow that allows him to enjoy his luxury lifestyle???

If you think about, the elephant in the room is that we all meet up on these sites because at some point in time we had a reason. Collectively, the entire country wastes millions of man-hours to do what I'm doing at the moment - reading, researching, writing, going to court etc. How can such a stress be reasonably cost-estimated? How many court hearings go down the drain, DJs time included. Seriously, I'm fuming beyond words. Going it alone is like kicking the can down the road: yes, you will sort out your one little problem... for now. Tomorrow, UKPCs will come up with another trick. I'm pretty sure Mr Roger Davey thought of all these points when he went for UKPC injunction. Realistically, this is one language that UKPC understands.

[SchoolRunMum]

only today I approached one - he parked his car in someones eases bay to issue tickets!!

Get photos next time and show them to Trading Standards, your MP, the BPA, the DVLA and the national press.

[cdon1975]

I have the picture of the car .....

[nosferatu1001]

OK, the concern here is that permit

BY paying for it you have potentially entered into an enforceable contract.

Check VERY CAREFULLY what you agreedt o.

[ipsy_dipsy]

OK, the concern here is that permit

BY paying for it you have potentially entered into an enforceable contract.

Check VERY CAREFULLY what you agreedt o.

I only paid for the permit because the Managing Agent (out of their sheer incompetence) told me to do so. At that time UKPC was already running on the estate, all of my neighbours had permits so I thought I should have one too just to avoid being an odd ball. Until I started seriously examining my freehold, land transfer title, etc.

[Eljayjay]

You have two choices: you can be reactive and wait for something to happen and let someone else, probably the parking company, take charge of the situation; or you can be proactive and attempt to put yourself in charge of what happens next. My advice to you would be to be proactive.

You have a further two choices: you can attempt to form a protest/lobby group; or you can go it alone. My advice to you would be to rely on yourself. Most people take the easy way out and pay parking charges. They melt away when asked to participate in stands that may involve court action. Additionally, most of the flats' residents will almost certainly be sub-tenants of buy-to-let landlords and they are often fearful of upsetting their landlords.

I have mentioned the possibility of taking action against the management company or the managing agents if it is they who are in cahoots with the parking company. [Who did sign the parking agreement with the parking contractor?] Initially, however, simply remind them of their obligation to apply due diligence in what they do and ask them for information. For example, ask them to explain where the documentation governing life and relationships where you live gives anyone the right to appoint anyone to manage parking in a parking space which you own. Be polite but also be assertive.

You are not being unreasonable by asking questions. If, say, the directors of the management company refuse to investigate or answer your questions, it is they who are being unreasonable. If they fail to respond, apply more pressure.

If you do not bring this situation to an end, it may hang over you for years during which you will be on the back foot.

From my own personal experience, I can confirm your own thoughts that these matters can be stressful, and that they do involve a great deal of effort in terms of research, writing defences, witness statements and so on. I can, however, also tell you that being told by a judge, if it comes to a court case, that s/he has found in your favour may not rank with those truly special moments in life, but it is a great feeling.

[Umkomaas]

In the meantime, in relation to the latest PCN, my formal appeal via UKPC website failed (obviously), my POPLA appeal didn’t bring any success either (not that I held my breath).

On what basis POPLA did turn down your appeal? It's staggering that they can side with a PPC and effectively condone them walking on to your own private property and issuing penalties. No different to them entering your lounge.

Something seriously wrong.

[ipsy_dipsy]

In the meantime, in relation to the latest PCN, my formal appeal via UKPC website failed (obviously), my POPLA appeal didn’t bring any success either (not that I held my breath).

On what basis POPLA did turn down your appeal? It's staggering that they can side with a PPC and effectively condone them walking on to your own private property and issuing penalties. No different to them entering your lounge.

Something seriously wrong.

here is POPLA's adjudicator's conclusion
“the appellant’s vehicle has been on site without a valid permit clearly on display, the terms and conditions of the car park have not been met”.

As per the contract between the MC and UKPC, the latter would be issuing tickets to "vehicles without valid parking permits". Of course, it's quite a grey zone how such validity is tested. Nowhere in the contract there is reference to "displaying valid parking permit" (let alone "paying and displaying parking permits").

Again, having read many posts on POPLA, I wasn't expecting much there as this was foregone conclusion.

[ipsy_dipsy]

You have two choices: you can be reactive and wait for something to happen and let someone else, probably the parking company, take charge of the situation; or you can be proactive and attempt to put yourself in charge of what happens next. My advice to you would be to be proactive.

You have a further two choices: you can attempt to form a protest/lobby group; or you can go it alone. My advice to you would be to rely on yourself. Most people take the easy way out and pay parking charges. They melt away when asked to participate in stands that may involve court action. Additionally, most of the flats' residents will almost certainly be sub-tenants of buy-to-let landlords and they are often fearful of upsetting their landlords.

I have mentioned the possibility of taking action against the management company or the managing agents if it is they who are in cahoots with the parking company. [Who did sign the parking agreement with the parking contractor?] Initially, however, simply remind them of their obligation to apply due diligence in what they do and ask them for information. For example, ask them to explain where the documentation governing life and relationships where you live gives anyone the right to appoint anyone to manage parking in a parking space which you own. Be polite but also be assertive.

You are not being unreasonable by asking questions. If, say, the directors of the management company refuse to investigate or answer your questions, it is they who are being unreasonable. If they fail to respond, apply more pressure.

If you do not bring this situation to an end, it may hang over you for years during which you will be on the back foot.

From my own personal experience, I can confirm your own thoughts that these matters can be stressful, and that they do involve a great deal of effort in terms of research, writing defences, witness statements and so on. I can, however, also tell you that being told by a judge, if it comes to a court case, that s/he has found in your favour may not rank with those truly special moments in life, but it is a great feeling.

Eljayjay,

Thank you very much, indeed. This is certainly the most sensible advice I could wish for!

Having slept on it, you’re right, the best course of actions for me would be to “go it alone”. While I’m clearly being proactive, and would reject the idea of having my fate in someone else’s hands (let alone UKPC’s hands), on the balance, it makes little sense to try and organize those who have no desire to be organized.

I must, indeed, concentrate and focus on the task at hands by sticking to my knitting. It’s the management company who allowed UKPC parasites to spread here by casting their nets on the estate (the MC is a counterparty to the contract with UKPC). As a shareholder I urge them to sort out this mess and deal with their agents accordingly. So far, I see it as ‘the lowest hanging fruit’. Stayed awake till 3:30AM last night and re-drafted the LBCCC to the MC.

I very much appreciate you sharing your court experience. I can also imagine, it must be quite something from a DJ perspective to watch a layman’s “performance” in court as litigant in person. I doubt if this is rather a pyrrhic victory, though. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

[kommando]

Again, having read many posts on POPLA, I wasn't expecting much there as this was foregone conclusion.

A POPLA win would have only got rid of one ticket, others would just have come and the same routine needed to be gone through, better to kill it off in one action, even if that action is longer and more stressful than one POPLA appeal, you stop all subsequent tickets.

[ipsy_dipsy]

Again, having read many posts on POPLA, I wasn't expecting much there as this was foregone conclusion.

A POPLA win would have only got rid of one ticket, others would just have come and the same routine needed to be gone through, better to kill it off in one action, even if that action is longer and more stressful than one POPLA appeal, you stop all subsequent tickets.

indeed, I have had several tickets in the past and always managed to get them cancelled relatively scot-free (actually by following wise advice on these very forums). In a way, I also see my current ordeal as an opportunity to (a) get to the root of the problem with a view to sort it out once and for all; (b) learn more about court proceedings, the sequencing of events, various fancy terms and all the rest of it. It's just, as all in life, it comes with a price. Having a stressful job, a mortgage to pay and a little one doesn't help either.

[nosferatu1001]

OK, you didnt answer the implied question - did you sign anything when yuo paid for the permit. Yes or No. If Yes, what did you sign!

Despite being the freeholder paying for a permit MAY MEAN YOU WOULD LOSE A COURT CLAIM! This is because you may have formed a contract direct with UKPC. So before rushing the LBA, check that damned component first.

[ipsy_dipsy]

OK, you didnt answer the implied question - did you sign anything when yuo paid for the permit. Yes or No. If Yes, what did you sign!

Despite being the freeholder paying for a permit MAY MEAN YOU WOULD LOSE A COURT CLAIM! This is because you may have formed a contract direct with UKPC. So before rushing the LBA, check that damned component first.

Appreciate that, I'm also in favour of the belt and braces approach.

It went like this: when I bought my house UKPC was already operating on the estate. I never bothered with permits because we never had a car. I's only when I bought one I started looking into the permit regime on the estate. Of course, I always knew that being a freeholder my parking space would be my own private land. But then, seeing that all of my neighbours had parking permits on their cars, I decided to give a call and confirm with our Managing Agent, who said that in order not to be ticketed I must buy a parking permit. I went back and forth with them mainly to confirm that, being a freeholder on the estate, strictly speaking, I don't need a permit to park on my land. The MA checked with UKPC and forwarded me an extract from UKPC's email "we are not to patrol private driveways under any circumstances". I wasn't really convinced, plus on top of that, the offer was £30 for two parking permits - residential and visitors. I thought that for 30 quid I might as well get myself a piece of mind and in case I ever needed the visitors permit, I would be able to just use it. In the end the MA sent me only the residential permit, confirming that UKPC no longer supplies visitors permits and all cars parked in "V" marked bays would not be patrolled (all in writing). Despite being a bit ****** off that I bought a useless piece of paper, I still decided to keep it as what the MA was saying made sense to me at that time. A couple of days latter, while the payment was cleared, I started getting PCNs on my car on a daily basis. When the permit finally arrived I put it on my windscreen just to avoid confrontations (and enjoy time with my then newly born).

No forms or documents were filled in by me to request the permit. However, I kept all the follow-up email communication with the MA just in case. Two first PCNs were cancelled with the help of the MA after my strongly-worded email to them.

Then, of course, another UKPC trespass followed (with me obtaining yet another written reassurance from the MA). And then, the latest PCN was fixed on my car while it was parked in the visitors bay!

[ManxRed]

...who said that in order not to be ticketed I must buy a parking permit.

Did alarm bells not go off at this point?

That sounds like extortion to me.

[ipsy_dipsy]

...who said that in order not to be ticketed I must buy a parking permit.

Did alarm bells not go off at this point?

That sounds like extortion to me.

Of course they did! It's just when you become a father for the first time (welcome welcome sleepless nights!) it made more sense to just get that useless sticker and enjoy life. I guess on the back of my mind I always knew that UKPC will come back for more, hence I kept the entire email chain with the MA handy. It is why I'm having a high level of confidence in the solidness of my current position. However, given what I nowadays learn about courts procedures etc, I realize that nothing is solid proof until the Judge says so. And to convince the Judge you have to prepare. And to prepare you have to spend tons of hours, diverting your attention from more useful / lucrative / potentially better paid / more enjoyable alternatives. Hence my dilemma. I wish it was a bit easier than that.

[Eljayjay]

The management company (and/or their agents) quite probably have no right to enter into a contract with a parking company for any part of the estate because they are almost certainly not the owner or occupier of the land.

As you are adamant that you own the freehold to your parking space, that would seem to rule both the management company (and/or their agents) being able to use your land for the purpose of their joint business venture without your permission.

I think if I were in your shoes, I might write a letter to one of the directors of the management company along the following lines...

Dear xxxxx,

I am writing to you in your role as a director of xxxxxxxxxxx ("the management company").

As you know, the management company through its agent, UKPC, operates a parking business using my freehold parking space as one of its assets.

If the management company and its business partner wish to continue using my freehold parking space for such a purpose, I am willing to enter into a contract to rent the space to the management company.

The space will only be available for rental at times when a vehicle is parked in it without my authorisation. The cost of renting the space will be £200 per day or part thereof. The issue of a parking ticket on any vehicle parked in my parking space will be deemed acceptance of the offer.

If the management company and its business partner do not wish to continue using my freehold parking space for the purpose of the parking business, then the management company must instruct its agent to cease and desist from using my parking space.

I look forward to learning whether or not the management company wishes to enter into a contract with me or that the cease and desist instruction has been issued to its agent.

Yours...