Parking Contravention - Lambeth |
Parking Contravention - Lambeth |
Sun, 3 Nov 2019 - 14:10
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
Hello,
I received a PCN from parking incorrectly in Lambeth, dated the 29th of October 2019. Please see photos taken by the council below: https://ibb.co/NmxGjf0 https://ibb.co/Lx4qTsy https://ibb.co/xhk6g0d https://ibb.co/KF262Qv https://ibb.co/jzXkCYZ Here is the Google Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/S9dxCXyxw2SMye339 - I was parked on the left. I would like to know how to proceed with this. I thought I was parked fine - parking there is seemingly confusing with driveways, lines and signs all over the place. Admittedly, I had not seen the sign on the other side of the pole. Any advise is greatly appreciated, any things I have left out or you need to know from me, please ask. |
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Sun, 3 Nov 2019 - 14:10
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Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 15:30
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I wonder if it ever occurs to the parking bods that they have to follow rules, not just make them up Forgive Them for The Know Not What They Do This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 15:31 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 18:10
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Actually, it is: -
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". The father being God. I don't think anybody on earth would forgive them ! |
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Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 16:22
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Any sign of the NtO?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 16:21
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
I have not yet received any letter regarding this, which I am surprised about.
Should I do anything on my end? |
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Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 22:30
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
No just keep waiting.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 14:58
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
Alright, the NtO has arrived as expected. How do I proceed from here? It has enclosed a letter for making representations, which looks like what I need to use to make my case as to why the contravention did not occur. Do I write this letter and send it off, or is there an online website where this can be done? And is it okay to use the appeal letter written here previously as my case? Do I need to provide photographic evidence?
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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 16:03
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Best to do it online. Just login and check the procedure but don't send anything yet - there's plenty of time to draft the reps here first.
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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 23:27
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Let's see the NtO. Also, you must once more insist that the council provide a copy of the footway parking resolution.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 12:38
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
Attached is the NtO:
I figured a couple of pages might be useless, but in the event it is relevant I've uploaded them anyway. https://ibb.co/6DLJf4X https://ibb.co/GCgSVHp https://ibb.co/BnrmCDW https://ibb.co/p0hjzkC |
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Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 17:15
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Dear London Borough of Lambeth,
My informal representation made an explicit request for the footway parking resolution for Helmsdale Road, this was completely ignored in the informal representation response. Where footway parking is permitted on part of a road, the extent of the permitted footway parking area is determined by the resolution rather than the positioning of the signs. If there is any discrepancy between the location of the signs and the resolution, the resolution must prevail. If the council is unable to put forward a copy of the resolution, it cannot be determined that the positioning of the signs is correct. If the council is unable or unwilling to produce the footway parking resolution duly passed under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974, it cannot be established that the contravention as alleged actually occurred and the penalty must be cancelled. Furthermore, it is not at all apparent that at the informal representation stage any consideration has been given to the issue of the resolution, there has not therefore been a full and proper consideration of the representations made. That amounts to a procedural impropriety which means that even if the alleged contravention occurred, nonetheless the penalty must be cancelled. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:27
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
I would also hit them with the other part which they also ignored:
You also did not address my point that you have not followed guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual. I parked in front of a sign on the left hand side of the road that indicated pavement parking. In section 13.19.10 it is stated: Where footway parking with no bay markings commences part way along a road and is not preceded by a yellow “no waiting” line or other road marking, a start sign facing oncoming traffic could be mistaken for a repeater sign, tempting drivers to park in advance of it where footway parking should not take place. I was misled by precisely this situation at the location as there was no indication from my approach that you intend footway parking to commence beyond the sign. Signage must be clear and not confuse a driver |
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Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 14:51
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
So, I think combining the two above would be great. By using a simple copy and paste job, it would look as follows:
Dear London Borough of Lambeth, My informal representation made an explicit request for the footway parking resolution for Helmsdale Road, this was completely ignored in the informal representation response. Where footway parking is permitted on part of a road, the extent of the permitted footway parking area is determined by the resolution rather than the positioning of the signs. If there is any discrepancy between the location of the signs and the resolution, the resolution must prevail. If the council is unable to put forward a copy of the resolution, it cannot be determined that the positioning of the signs is correct. If the council is unable or unwilling to produce the footway parking resolution duly passed under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974, it cannot be established that the contravention as alleged actually occurred and the penalty must be cancelled. You also did not address my point that you have not followed guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual. I parked in front of a sign on the left hand side of the road that indicated pavement parking. In section 13.19.10 it is stated: Where footway parking with no bay markings commences part way along a road and is not preceded by a yellow “no waiting” line or other road marking, a start sign facing oncoming traffic could be mistaken for a repeater sign, tempting drivers to park in advance of it where footway parking should not take place. I was misled by precisely this situation at the location as there was no indication from my approach that you intend footway parking to commence beyond the sign. Signage must be clear and not confuse a driver. Furthermore, it is not at all apparent that at the informal representation stage any consideration has been given to the issue of the resolution, there has not therefore been a full and proper consideration of the representations made. That amounts to a procedural impropriety which means that even if the alleged contravention occurred, nonetheless the penalty must be cancelled. Do I need to be aware of any other items? Looking at the Grounds for Representations and the above evidence, "the alleged contravention did not occur" and "there has been a procedural impropriety on the enforcement authority" appear to be suitable options, but I am not sure if more than one should/can be selected. Once again, I am ever so thankful for the advise I have been given. |
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Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 17:59
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
That looks good, you've identified the two applicable grounds. You can select as many as apply in your case.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 13:38
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
The website only allows me to select one, so I'll go with the procedural impropriety option, as selecting "the contravention did not occur" comes with a sub menu and none of the options really apply, unless I select "At the time I am supposed to have been in contravention, the restriction did not apply."
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Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 13:54
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
It doesn't matter really as long as you still include all the grounds.
This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 13:54 |
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Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:13
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
To be honest it doesn't matter what box you select, the council is required to consider the text of your representation regardless.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 18:19
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
They have rejected the appeal once again.
Dear <name> Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). Our Decision We issued you with a ticket and understand that driving in London is not always easy. The PCN was issued correctly and in line with the Regulations. I can therefore find no reason to cancel it. Why was the PCN issued? The PCN was issued as your vehicle was seen "Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway." Our Reason for Rejecting your Representation I note your comments, however the circumstance described do not warrant the cancellation of the PCN. Footway parking is only permitted where signs and markings officially authorise them. I can confirm that the signage you have referred to in your challenge, is in fact relevant to the area beyond where you had parked. Therefore, this PCN was issued correctly. No further information, other than that I can either pay, or appeal to the E&TA. I was expecting evidence to be shown regarding what I had requested, but they have not provided any evidence, other than the photos taken originally and the signage, which they have been challenged on. Is my next step to take this to the E&TA? |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 19:43
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Is the discount on offer? Regardless I would take this to the tribunal - they haven't bothered at all to address the two key points.
This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 19:43 |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 22:50
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 3 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,452 |
They say I can pay £110 by Wednesday, 12 February 2020, or appeal to Environment and Traffic Adjudicators (E&TA).
There's nothing with regards of discounts unfortunately. |
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 10:17
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
So you need to register an appeal with the tribunal if you have a code. You can choose to attend in person (they are open on Saturday if it helps).
You can upload your evidence later. https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/online-appeals |
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