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Parked on private land - council ticket
gazcbm
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 18:04
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Hi,

just received a PCN for parking on the land of non-council owned building.

https://imgur.com/a/yRKKiju

Will probably need to take a more recent picture but photo1 - I parked where the portacabin is, which is mark by the red line on photo 2. Photo 3 shows cars parked against the kerb which now has double yellows, so people have moved to parking in front of the loading bays etc. This building has remained empty for many years and I have been parking here for 2 years.

This is the image of the PCN
https://imgur.com/yEEJFv0

I'm not sure where I stand because i wasn't parked on the street yet the ticket is claiming I was.

Any help wold be appreciated

This post has been edited by gazcbm: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 18:05
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post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 18:04
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Incandescent
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 19:10
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Well, you were parked on the street because this covers the full width where the public have free access and includes carriageway, footways, and verges up to the property line. However before we recommend paying it at the discount rate, can we see the whole PCN back and front, and any up-to-date photos you can provide, including the councils, as you have told us there are now double-yellow lines there now. These cover the full road width as above, so include footways and verges. So by parking off the carriageway, thinking you avoided the double yellow line restriction, (no waiting 24x7), you actually haven't, I'm afraid.

However, lets see more photos and the full PCN before coming to judgment.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 19:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 19:21
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I cannot see what creates the restriction the line looks more like a dog bone than a SYL to me

As well as the back of the PCN get and post the council photos

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.484187,-2...3312!8i6656

At the least you have a claim of legitimate expectation


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gazcbm
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 20:05
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https://m.imgur.com/gallery/cyDj4o4

Here is the back, will take some photos of the area tomorrow

Thanks for you help so far
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 20:31
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QUOTE (gazcbm @ Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 21:05) *
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/cyDj4o4

Here is the back, will take some photos of the area tomorrow

Thanks for you help so far


Go online and see if you can get the council photos, if not ask for them


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Incandescent
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:05
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To save time, if you can take and post your own photos it might help us. You definitely would seem to have a good case for cancellation based on legitimate expectation as suggested by PMB, but usually this argument is only tested at adjudication with the full penalty in play. Only thing to ask is - when were the double-yellows painted ? Your first post implied they were quite recent.
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gazcbm
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 11:27
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Couple more pictures.

Interesting that they seem to be targeting people that are past the wall (see the red car without and the the white car with + the other cars haven't been affected )

https://imgur.com/lRxY7Fd
https://imgur.com/ItnHfo0
https://imgur.com/2sTGmVK
https://imgur.com/jorEqCR
https://imgur.com/55qyvDb

I have requested a picture from the council.

The double yellow lines have been there about a year maybe? Just FYI right opposite this building is a council run car park that is visited at least twice a day by CEO so not sure why all of a sudden this has started.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:21
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QUOTE (gazcbm @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 12:27) *
Just FYI right opposite this building is a council run car park that is visited at least twice a day by CEO so not sure why all of a sudden this has started.

Obviously somebody has seen a nice earning opportunity for the council ! Alternatively, somebody occupying the premises has made a complaint and they have acted on it.
Frankly, when one sees the extent of the double-yellow line, it's difficult to think of any appeal as the DYLs apply right up to the walls of the buildings. Others may see otherwise, so wait a bit before you cough-up or submit reps. I would think that if the DYLs have been there for 12 months, and this is the first time you have got a PCN, then you have a good case for "legitimate expectation" of not being ticketed, but as said before, council are unlikely to back-down, (they keep all your money if you pay).

If you're prepared to stand your ground and forego the discount, submit informalreps and if refused, wait for the Notice to Owner and submit formal reps to that. If they then refuse you again, take them to adjudication, as the penalty is now fixed and does not go up at adjudication. FYI, "legit. expectation" has won appeals in the past. Needless to say, if you win, you no longer have this expectation, so you'll have to find somewhere else to park.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:22
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cp8759
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 19:09
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The council's use of an 0844 number on the back of the PCN makes it potentially unenforceable. Note to self: 0844 848 2566

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:57


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 19:19
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what does the red sign say?


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gazcbm
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 10:28
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So here are the pictures sent by the council. Note they are extremely small, not sure why they dont have bigger pictures.

https://imgur.com/a/fVOn6Gp

At this point I am over the allotted time for a discount so I might as well carry on with an appeal if possible.

Interested to learn more about this 0844 thing.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 20:09) *
The council's use of an 0844 number on the back of the PCN makes it potentially unenforceable. Note to self: 0844 848 2566



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:21) *
Obviously somebody has seen a nice earning opportunity for the council ! Alternatively, somebody occupying the premises has made a complaint and they have acted on it.
Frankly, when one sees the extent of the double-yellow line, it's difficult to think of any appeal as the DYLs apply right up to the walls of the buildings. Others may see otherwise, so wait a bit before you cough-up or submit reps. I would think that if the DYLs have been there for 12 months, and this is the first time you have got a PCN, then you have a good case for "legitimate expectation" of not being ticketed, but as said before, council are unlikely to back-down, (they keep all your money if you pay).

If you're prepared to stand your ground and forego the discount, submit informalreps and if refused, wait for the Notice to Owner and submit formal reps to that. If they then refuse you again, take them to adjudication, as the penalty is now fixed and does not go up at adjudication. FYI, "legit. expectation" has won appeals in the past. Needless to say, if you win, you no longer have this expectation, so you'll have to find somewhere else to park.


What are informal reps? How do I start this process.

Thanks for all your help guys

This post has been edited by gazcbm: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 10:29
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Incandescent
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 19:10
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Why so tardy in replying to advice ?
You have now lost the discount option as you're now outside the 14 day discount period. If you now submit informal reps they have to consider them, but have no obligation to re-offer the discount if refusing, but may re-offer it to jolly you along to pay. If you don't pay or make informal reps they will send a Notice to Owner that you must respond to, (pay or submit formal reps), assuming you are the owner of the vehicle. Once an NtO is issued you are in the formal enforcement process and need to keep up-to-speed with it. If you just bury your head in the sand, you'll have bailiffs at your door for certain. They don't come cheap. As well as the PCN penalty (+50% for you not paying), they add their own charges on.
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gazcbm
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 07:16
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 20:10) *
Why so tardy in replying to advice ?
You have now lost the discount option as you're now outside the 14 day discount period. If you now submit informal reps they have to consider them, but have no obligation to re-offer the discount if refusing, but may re-offer it to jolly you along to pay. If you don't pay or make informal reps they will send a Notice to Owner that you must respond to, (pay or submit formal reps), assuming you are the owner of the vehicle. Once an NtO is issued you are in the formal enforcement process and need to keep up-to-speed with it. If you just bury your head in the sand, you'll have bailiffs at your door for certain. They don't come cheap. As well as the PCN penalty (+50% for you not paying), they add their own charges on.


Sorry I just cOme along for some advice. I’m not burying my head in the sand, and will pay whatever I need to if it comes to that. Sometimes more important things in life crop up. I should also add that it was 4 days before I received a reply from the council with my pictures.

What are informal reps?

This post has been edited by gazcbm: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 07:17
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Incandescent
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 10:05
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Informal reps are those submitted when a PCN has been served to car or driver, before the issue of a Notice to Owner. If informal reps are submitted within the discount period (14 days), the council normally re-offers the discount if refusing the reps.The NtO goes to the name and address on the V5. Any reps against the NtO are formal.
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gazcbm
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 10:31
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Great thanks, so essentially informal reps is me challenging the ticket at any point before the NTO. After that it becomes formal.

Are there any templates that I should use for the challenge?
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cp8759
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:17
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We don't do templates, the councils often lose because they use template rejections. Have a read of ground 4 here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571

The service charge for Tameside Metropolitan Borough council is 7p per minute. Write a draft challenge and post it on here for comment before you send it to the council.


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gazcbm
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:12
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Looking at this and reading more about legitimate expectation, I really think my only option is the 0844 option. Whilst I have been parking there for over a year I have no proof of this, Also I have no real proof that the cars that park in front of the building (still to this day) who would also be caught by the same rule do not receive parking tickets (see https://imgur.com/lRxY7Fd & https://imgur.com/2sTGmVK). I don't wish to spoil this for my fellow commuters in this area, but it does seem that someone (probably the takeaway that park their delivery car in the same spot) has complained and therefore a very specific area (3 sqm) of enforcement is being carried out and really the entire strip should be receiving tickets. Probably including the local haulage company who park their trailers ON double yellow lines.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:39
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Not quite where your red mark was in your first post!

And you’re on the crossover.

Can’t see a defence here, but by all means put legitimate expectation to the authority and see how they respond.
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gazcbm
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:00
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:39) *
Not quite where your red mark was in your first post!

And you’re on the crossover.

Can’t see a defence here, but by all means put legitimate expectation to the authority and see how they respond.


Yeah my car was next to the white car so the red mark was there or thereabouts. I agree I am not sure there is a defense and with everything I have read plus the help from here I'm really clutching at straws.

I have also parked in front of the building most days since the PCN and not received a ticket but clearly at the Parking Attendants whim they could quite easily issue one here as well so I need to find a new parking space.

Will go with the recommendation from cp8759 as I don't really have anything further to lose at the moment. Even paying the full £70, over the past year or so of free parking I have still made a massive saving.
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King312
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 11:16
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QUOTE (gazcbm @ Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 19:04) *
Hi,

just received a PCN for parking on the land of non-council owned building.

....

I'm not sure where I stand because i wasn't parked on the street yet the ticket is claiming I was.

Any help wold be appreciated


Obviously follow the advice of experienced posters above.

Although there is the width of the road argument. You say it is private land, have you got evidence it is private land, i.e. Land Registry or other maps. I might be barking up the wrong tree for an alternative argument, if so please can someone point it out. Recently I got a ticket dismissed from a PPC for a ticket on public land, surely the same applies the other way around --- for a council to ticket on private land ----and argument of prior indiscretion that the Council officer was tress-passing to apply the ticket too.

This post has been edited by King312: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 11:17
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