Enforcement Process Commenced but did not know about the penalties Options

[MRWAYYNE86]

I received a letter from bailiffs saying "Enforcement Process Commenced" for six (yes six) bus lane contraventions.

This was the first notice I had of the contraventions, possibly due to moving address around that time. I have never received any correspondence before being sent the letter by the bailiffs.

I wrote to Essex Council to send a new penalty notice, they wrote back last week saying my only two options are to pay the fine with the bailiffs or sign and send a PE2 and/or PE3 form to the TEC.

Now I am confused on how I need to proceed? Do I need these forms signing by a solicitor? Do I need to send both a PE3 and PE2?

Sorry, please help.

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[MRWAYYNE86]

OK Neil B.

Forgive me I'm obviously having difficulty following this. I agree I don't yet know why the PCN after 4th September did not find their way to me yet. I'm hoping when the lease company gets back to me this afternoon it will clarify that. Otherwise I can't explain it other than I just never received the letter - not sure what else I can say?? Let's hope this gets clarified by the lease company.

Neil B what do you mean by

"Agree and for the EA's part is in complete disregard to DfT Guidance."

Thanks

We seem to have two cases here though - pending confirmation from the lease company it seems we can be sure that four of the PCN dated before 4th September were issued to my previous address.


For these PCN I am drafting a PE2 form explaining it seems to be an "unforunate issue of timing leading to the misaddressing of the subsequent PCN". Then stating all the factual dates I've been told by the lease company.

What do I need to say on the PE3 form?

For the other two PCN issued after 4th September - I will revert when I know more facts.

[Neil B]

What do I need to say on the PE3 form?

Only that you did not receive the PCN due to a change of address.

No full detail necessary.

HCA's (possibly) revised input on PE2 would be useful if he is about.

Neil B what do you mean by

"Agree and for the EA's part is in complete disregard to DfT Guidance."

DfT Guidance says that Councils should consider dealing with these situations more constructively.
i.e. where they discover notices have gone to the wrong address.

I'll try and find it.
It's not law but it does mean they can be asked to show that they have given it 'consideration'.

Forgive me I'm obviously having difficulty following this.

So are we because of the multiple and various circumstances.
For you, it's a crash course in 'process' and what info is relevant and what essential.
A lot to take in while under threat.

[hcandersen]

IMO, as regards the owner this is not some adminstrative process whereby they are passing on information about their client, they are engaged in a formal legal process to transfer liability to the hirer.

The hirer did not so much notify the owner of their change of address, they advised them of a material amendment to the hiring agreement, namely the contact details of the hirer.

And as the owner is required to provide (correct) details of the hiring agreement to the authority -an obligation which IMO persists even after a NOA, let alone before one is received - then IMO at least until NOAs are received the owner in these circumstances is subject to a legal duty to provide accurate info to the authority.

[Neil B]

And as the owner is required to provide (correct) details of the hiring agreement to the authority -an obligation which IMO persists even after a NOA, let alone before one is received - then IMO at least until NOAs are received the owner in these circumstances is subject to a legal duty to provide accurate info to the authority.

Ah, that's a good point, i.e. should have made further reps when the change became apparent.
I hope Wayne understands.

[MRWAYYNE86]

And as the owner is required to provide (correct) details of the hiring agreement to the authority -an obligation which IMO persists even after a NOA, let alone before one is received - then IMO at least until NOAs are received the owner in these circumstances is subject to a legal duty to provide accurate info to the authority.

Ah, that's a good point, i.e. should have made further reps when the change became apparent.
I hope Wayne understands.

Thanks I understand that.

I have just received an Email from the lease company confirming that the two PCN sent to the authority after 4th September were actually sent to my previous address despite the address having been updated on their systems. So this now explains why I never received all six PCN.

How would you say I should proceed with PE2 and PE3?

Thanks

Draft PE2 form:

I NEVER RECEIVED THE ORIGINAL ENFORCEMENT NOTICE / PCN. AS OF 20/03/2018 I HAVE
NOT RECEIVED ANY CORRESPONDENCE RELATING TO THE PENALTY CHARGE. I HAVE NOT
RECEIVED ANY CORRESPONDENCE FROM NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COURT
TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT CENTRE RELATING TO THE PCN. I WAS MADE AWARE OF THE PCN DUE TO A LETTER RECEIVED ON 28/02/2018 FROM BRISTOR SUTOR.

DURING THE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF AUGUST 2017 I WAS MOVING HOUSE FROM 614 WEST
CARRIAGE HOUSE, WOOLWICH ARSENAL, SE18 6GB TO MY CURRENT ADDRESS OF 78 ARMISTICE AVENUE, CHELMSFORD, CM1 6AR.

I DO NOT HAVE A RECORD OF WHEN I CHANGED THE ADDRESS WITH THE
LEASING COMPANY, BUT I HAVE CONFIRMED IN WRITING THAT THEIR RECORDS WERE UPDATED ON 04/09/17.

THE UNFORTUNATE ISSUE OF TIMING AND THE ERROR IN
NOTIFYING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CORRECT ADDRESS HAS LED TO MISADDRESSING OF THE
SUBSEQUENT PCN.

THE EVIDENCE AS I HAVE IT IS AS FOLLOWS:
THE PCN WAS RECEIVED BY THE OWNER ON 25/08/2017
THE OWNER THEN MADE REPRESENTATIONS TO THE AUTHORITY ON 31/08/2017.
IN PARALLEL I WAS MOVING HOUSE - AND UNAWARE OF THE ISSUE REGARDING A CONTRAVENTION -
AS REQUIRED UNDER MY HIRING AGREEMENT FOR THE VEHICLE I NOTIFIED THE OWNER
OF MY NEW ADDRESS AND THEIR RECORDS WERE UPDATED ON 04/09/2017.

IN THEIR REPRESENTATIONS THE OWNER PROVIDED THE AUTHORITY WITH MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS
AND ALTHOUGH THEY HAD YET TO RECEIVE A NOTICE OF ACCEPTANCE DID NOT INFORM
THE AUTHORITY OF THIS CHANGE.

FURTHERMORE AS THE OWNER IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE CORRECT DETAILS OF THE HIRING AGREEMENT TO THE AUTHORITY - AN OBLIGATION THAT PERSISTS AFTER A NOTICE OF
ACCEPTANCE, LET ALONE BEFORE ONE IS RECEIVED - THEN THE OWNER SHOULD HAVE MADE FURTHER REPRESENTATIONS WHEN THE CHANGE IN MY ADDRESS DETAILS BECAME APPARENT.

I DO NOT DISPUTE THE PCN BUT RESPECTFULLY WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SENT THE PCN AND PAY THE PENALTY.


This post has been edited by MRWAYYNE86: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 13:52

[MRWAYYNE86]

DRAFT PE3 for two PCN after 4th September:

I DID NOT RECEIVE THE ORIGINAL NOTICE OR ANY FOLLOW UP NOTICES.
THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE FORWARDED MY DETAILS TO THE AUTHORITY ON 16/09/2017.
HOWEVER DESPITE THEIR RECORDS OF MY ADDRESS BEING UPDATED ON THE 4TH SEPTEMBER THEY INFORMED THE AUTHORITY OF MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS.

I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE CONTRAVENTION. I RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SENT THE PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE.


DRAFT PE3 for two PCN prior to 4th September:

I DID NOT RECEIVE THE ORIGINAL NOTICE OR ANY FOLLOW UP NOTICES.
THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE FORWARDED MY DETAILS TO THE AUTHORITY ON DD/MM/YY.

I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE CONTRAVENTION. I RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SENT THE PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE.

This post has been edited by MRWAYYNE86: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 14:36

[MRWAYYNE86]

Whether improvements could have been made to the PE2 and PE3 forms they have now been witnessed by a solicitor and due to be sent today.

[Neil B]

As you say, it's done.

FWIW much is down to personal style so what I would say and you would say may differ but be effectively the same.
I don't have time to check back on all the facts but as long as you're happy you've conveyed the relevant facts.

Observations.

DURING THE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF AUGUST 2017 I WAS MOVING HOUSE FROM 614 WEST
CARRIAGE HOUSE, WOOLWICH ARSENAL, SE18 6GB TO MY CURRENT ADDRESS OF 78 ARMISTICE AVENUE, CHELMSFORD, CM1 6AR.
Send evidence of this.

I DO NOT HAVE A RECORD OF WHEN I CHANGED THE ADDRESS WITH THE
LEASING COMPANY, BUT I HAVE CONFIRMED IN WRITING THAT THEIR RECORDS WERE UPDATED ON 04/09/17.
Why have you included that negative? It could have been left out. What you said further down was better and sufficient. *

THE UNFORTUNATE ISSUE OF TIMING AND THE ERROR IN
NOTIFYING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CORRECT ADDRESS HAS LED TO MISADDRESSING OF THE
SUBSEQUENT PCN. and subsequent notices

THE EVIDENCE AS I HAVE IT IS AS FOLLOWS:
THE PCN WAS RECEIVED BY THE OWNER ON 25/08/2017
THE OWNER THEN MADE REPRESENTATIONS TO THE AUTHORITY ON 31/08/2017.
IN PARALLEL I WAS MOVING HOUSE - AND UNAWARE OF THE ISSUE REGARDING A CONTRAVENTION -
*AS REQUIRED UNDER MY HIRING AGREEMENT FOR THE VEHICLE I NOTIFIED THE OWNER
OF MY NEW ADDRESS AND THEIR RECORDS WERE UPDATED ON 04/09/2017.

IN THEIR REPRESENTATIONS THE OWNER PROVIDED THE AUTHORITY WITH MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS
AND ALTHOUGH THEY HAD YET TO RECEIVE A NOTICE OF ACCEPTANCE DID NOT INFORM
THE AUTHORITY OF THIS CHANGE.

FURTHERMORE AS THE OWNER IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE CORRECT DETAILS OF THE HIRING AGREEMENT TO THE AUTHORITY - AN OBLIGATION THAT PERSISTS AFTER A NOTICE OF
ACCEPTANCE, LET ALONE BEFORE ONE IS RECEIVED - THEN THE OWNER SHOULD HAVE MADE FURTHER REPRESENTATIONS WHEN THE CHANGE IN MY ADDRESS DETAILS BECAME APPARENT.

I DO NOT DISPUTE THE PCN BUT RESPECTFULLY WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SENT THE PCN AND PAY THE PENALTY.

But I don't think anything is particularly damaging.

--
On the PE3, way, way too much -- (I did warn) --- but again, it may not be materially important.

----
You have sworn all 12 ? How much did solicitor charge?

Have you e-mailed these?