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Code 01 ‘Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours’
Sn1pa0pt1k
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:15
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I left my van advertised on a large grassed area on a one way system, DYL present. Didn’t think I would get a ticket, was the last thing I even thought would happen, as I would leave the van for a day and then move it.

No obstruction caused to add.

Had a ticket placed by the local council for Code 01 ‘Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours’

Not sure where I stand, if there’s any fight.

Photos should be linked, of the ticket and the location marked red where the van was.

Thanks in advance for any help, sorry if I’ve not done anything correctly.









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post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:15
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stamfordman
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:33
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What is the council - you've chopped off the top of the PCN.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:42
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The double-yellow lines apply to the verge you parked on. DYLs don't just apply to the carriageway, but to the whole road including footways and verges.

Edit

So here in Pontnewyd, Cwmbran, Wales
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6557378,-...33;8i8192?hl=en
My opinion is you are bang-to-rights as I said above, the DYLs apply to that grassed area.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:50
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Sn1pa0pt1k
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:54
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:33) *
What is the council - you've chopped off the top of the PCN.


Apologies- TCBC (Torfaen)
The ticket is very long so didn’t want to make the text unreadable


QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:42) *
The double-yellow lines apply to the verge you parked on. DYLs don't just apply to the carriageway, but to the whole road including footways and verges.

Edit

So here in Pontnewyd, Cwmbran, Wales
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6557378,-...33;8i8192?hl=en
My opinion is you are bang-to-rights as I said above, the DYLs apply to that grassed area.


My thoughts exactly, I just wanted to be sure.

What if, a vehicle broke down and was going to be recovered? At that 20 minute point of the enforcement officer waiting, said person could have been seeking help?
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Gerfc1
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 21:58
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I believe this is the wrong code which should be 02 instead of 01.

As there is double yellow blips on the kerbs meaning it is no loading at any time.

But no guarantee of sucess, let us know if you wish to make a representation?
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:00
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QUOTE (Sn1pa0pt1k @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:54) *
What if, a vehicle broke down and was going to be recovered? At that 20 minute point of the enforcement officer waiting, said person could have been seeking help?

Was that the case?

Post ALL of the PCN.
Use Imgur, Flickr or put on a cloud drive.

I have an issue with it already.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Sn1pa0pt1k
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:07
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:00) *
QUOTE (Sn1pa0pt1k @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:54) *
What if, a vehicle broke down and was going to be recovered? At that 20 minute point of the enforcement officer waiting, said person could have been seeking help?

Was that the case?

Post ALL of the PCN.
Use Imgur, Flickr or put on a cloud drive.

I have an issue with it already.









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Gerfc1
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:17
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I am interested on why they say "act as a reminder before adding a surcharge on Notice to Owner"

The PCN is set at £70 and discounted to £35 if paid within 14 days but there should be no extra charge on Notice to Owner. I feel the council is misleading this as people may think the price could increase when the Notice to Owner arrives.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:29
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I see no date of service. If i am correct and there is only a date of issue then the high court have ruled that a PCN iwould be invalid


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Incandescent
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:45
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:29) *
I see no date of service. If i am correct and there is only a date of issue then the high court have ruled that a PCN iwould be invalid

There is a date of issue, and as the PCN was served to the car, I think this would be considered mere semantics by an adjudicator. However there is no warning about the need to respond to the NtO even if a previoius challenge had made and a response not yet received. This, for me, is a fatal error, and one would hope an adjudicator would agree.

Edit
A quick look at the Welsh regulations shows that the warning I mention above seems not to be present. It just shows the dangers of ignorant administrators not copying across the whole thing to the local regulations.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:57
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 09:21
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:29) *
I see no date of service. If i am correct and there is only a date of issue then the high court have ruled that a PCN iwould be invalid

There is a date of issue, and as the PCN was served to the car, I think this would be considered mere semantics by an adjudicator. However there is no warning about the need to respond to the NtO even if a previoius challenge had made and a response not yet received. This, for me, is a fatal error, and one would hope an adjudicator would agree.

Edit
A quick look at the Welsh regulations shows that the warning I mention above seems not to be present. It just shows the dangers of ignorant administrators not copying across the whole thing to the local regulations.


See paragraphs 34 to 45


https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2006/2357.html


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hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 11:22
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The PCN is defective:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/362/schedule/1/made

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/359/contents/made
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Incandescent
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 12:20
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The problem is the difference in this clause in the England regs: -

QUOTE
3.2.b.(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The Wales regs clause (which cover all road traffic contraventions incl parking: -

QUOTE
3.2.(ii)but that if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge will be considered, provided that they are made in the form and manner and within the time specified in the notice to owner.


For me, this is not mere semantics. The England regs clause is quite specific that if reps have been made against a PCN, then if a NtO is served, reps must be made in accordance with instructions on the NtO. The Welsh clause doesn't have the "must" in it.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 12:22
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Gerfc1
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:13
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 12:20) *
The problem is the difference in this clause in the England regs: -

QUOTE
3.2.b.(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The Wales regs clause (which cover all road traffic contraventions incl parking: -

QUOTE
3.2.(ii)but that if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge will be considered, provided that they are made in the form and manner and within the time specified in the notice to owner.


For me, this is not mere semantics. The England regs clause is quite specific that if reps have been made against a PCN, then if a NtO is served, reps must be made in accordance with instructions on the NtO. The Welsh clause doesn't have the "must" in it.



The difference is that there is no legal right to have the representation considered against the PCN while it is legal right for the NtO. Most council offer informal representation as goodwill and to prevent from going to adjucator as there is no extra charge after the discount period.

In the eye of law when the PCN is served, there is two way is pay up discount withn 14 days, full within 28 days or wait for Notice to Owner.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:20
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QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 12:20) *
The problem is the difference in this clause in the England regs: -

QUOTE
3.2.b.(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The Wales regs clause (which cover all road traffic contraventions incl parking: -

QUOTE
3.2.(ii)but that if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge will be considered, provided that they are made in the form and manner and within the time specified in the notice to owner.


For me, this is not mere semantics. The England regs clause is quite specific that if reps have been made against a PCN, then if a NtO is served, reps must be made in accordance with instructions on the NtO. The Welsh clause doesn't have the "must" in it.



The difference is that there is no legal right to have the representation considered against the PCN while it is legal right for the NtO. Most council offer informal representation as goodwill and to prevent from going to adjucator as there is no extra charge after the discount period.

In the eye of law when the PCN is served, there is two way is pay up discount withn 14 days, full within 28 days or wait for Notice to Owner.


No read the regs the representations must be considered, though they do not have to be responded to.

The point raised by incandescent and that raised by myself both have merit

OP if you are to challenge ( let us know your intent ) it is quite technical so i will draft for you


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cp8759
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:59
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:29) *
I see no date of service. If i am correct and there is only a date of issue then the high court have ruled that a PCN iwould be invalid

There is a date of issue, and as the PCN was served to the car, I think this would be considered mere semantics by an adjudicator.

The adjudicator doesn't have a say, the High Court case PMB has posted is binding on the tribunal.

Interestingly the PCN says that payment must be made within 28 days of the date of issue, which is obviously wrong. Even if the PCN had a date of service, this would not save their case. And the date of service is a mandatory requirement under the Welsh regulations, so failure to state the date of service is a clear-cut PI in light of the High Court's judgment.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 14:00


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Incandescent
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 16:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:59) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 22:29) *
I see no date of service. If i am correct and there is only a date of issue then the high court have ruled that a PCN iwould be invalid

There is a date of issue, and as the PCN was served to the car, I think this would be considered mere semantics by an adjudicator.

The adjudicator doesn't have a say, the High Court case PMB has posted is binding on the tribunal.

Interestingly the PCN says that payment must be made within 28 days of the date of issue, which is obviously wrong. Even if the PCN had a date of service, this would not save their case. And the date of service is a mandatory requirement under the Welsh regulations, so failure to state the date of service is a clear-cut PI in light of the High Court's judgment.

I do wonder what their administrators were smoking when they put those regulations together !
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Sn1pa0pt1k
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 23:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 12:20) *
The problem is the difference in this clause in the England regs: -

QUOTE
3.2.b.(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The Wales regs clause (which cover all road traffic contraventions incl parking: -

QUOTE
3.2.(ii)but that if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge will be considered, provided that they are made in the form and manner and within the time specified in the notice to owner.


For me, this is not mere semantics. The England regs clause is quite specific that if reps have been made against a PCN, then if a NtO is served, reps must be made in accordance with instructions on the NtO. The Welsh clause doesn't have the "must" in it.


The difference is that there is no legal right to have the representation considered against the PCN while it is legal right for the NtO. Most council offer informal representation as goodwill and to prevent from going to adjucator as there is no extra charge after the discount period.

In the eye of law when the PCN is served, there is two way is pay up discount withn 14 days, full within 28 days or wait for Notice to Owner.


No read the regs the representations must be considered, though they do not have to be responded to.

The point raised by incandescent and that raised by myself both have merit

OP if you are to challenge ( let us know your intent ) it is quite technical so i will draft for you


Would like the help if possible?
Many thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 09:54
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OK will draft later


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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 11:06
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The PCN states that SPWG will consider a challenge against the PCN if submitted 'within 28 days of the date of issue'.

And we have fettering of their discretion - for which there is case law - as regards:

Non-Payment
...if ....within 28 days a NTO will be served....

Is both nonsense in the context of them undertaking to consider challenges within 28 days and fails to comply with the regs i.e. ..may serve a NTO.

And on and on it goes.

It's pants.

edit - my personal concern is that the OP, who appears to think that leaving their vehicle on a grass verge for the sole purpose of using it as a quasi show room, might be tempted to continue should the authority lose at adjudication or cancel the PCN!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 12:01
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