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34J Mitchell Way, Bromley, PCN driving in Bus Lane
TKPK
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 11:34
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Hi, my wife recently received a PCN for driving in a bus lane on Mitchell Way, Bromley. She had no idea that she had done this until an elderly pedestrian tapped her window while she was waiting at the lights and informed her of this. We believe that the signage here is not very good or early enough to allow people to make the correct decision in time and the road lay out is also pretty unusual. I have taken photographs since the incident and can provide as necessary.

TKPK
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post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 11:34
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stamfordman
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 11:37
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Post the PCN and video, and your pics of the signage. Leave in all dates and times.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs etc.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.
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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:06
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Put the PCN in a google drive or dropbox folder and post the link on here (redact your name and address). Also send me the PCN number & number plate in a PM and I'll post the video for you.


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TKPK
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:45
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https://ibb.co/Wpj1Ny3
https://ibb.co/C5m7cKz

Pix as above.


Still working on uploading Video and other pictures.
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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 14:03
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieJfb9WhIs


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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 14:26
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Draft representations for you to send, put them in a PDF in order to keep all formatting / indentation as below:

----------------------------------------

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I make representations against the Penalty Charge Notice on the following grounds:

Firstly my wife (who was driving) only entered the bus lane because she was unaware of its existence until after the event. This is because there was insufficient prior warning. She came from Mitchell Way, I now know there is a sign prior to the bus lane but it is angled at traffic coming from Northside Road, such that on her approach she would have been almost at a 90 degree angle to the sign:



While the sign might comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations 2016, it does not comply with the requirement of adequacy imposed by regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996

The Traffic Signs Manual explains at 9.3.3 that:
9.3.3.  The start of the lane is marked with a broken line to diagram 1010 (S11‑4‑10), the same width as the 1049A marking, and normally laid at a taper no sharper than 1:10. There may be situations where it is not practicable to provide a taper of 1:10 and a sharper taper is necessary. In such circumstances, care should be taken to ensure that traffic is directed away from the start of the bus lane in a safe manner.
In this instance the taper is quite obviously sharper than 1:10 but no care has been taken to ensure that traffic is directed away from the bus lane.

The TSM also explains at 9.3.4 that:
9.3.4.  Advance indication of a with‑flow bus lane is provided by the sign to diagram 958 (S11‑2‑37, see Figure 9-2) varied as appropriate. Where the speed limit is 20 mph or 30 mph, the sign should be sited 30 m in advance of the lead‑in taper formed by the road marking to diagram 1010 (see 9.3.3), with a minimum clear visibility distance of 45 m.
While the TSM is not legally binding, it can be used in support of the proposition that the highways authority has not discharged its duties under regulation 18 of the 1996 regulations. It is obvious that traffic coming from Mitchell Way does not have a clear visibility distance of 45 metres, or even 25 metres, even assuming a sign could be read when it is placed at almost a 90 degree angle:



The diagram 958 sign located at the junction of Mitchell Way and Northside Road could not realistically be seen by a motorist coming from Mitchell way, as illustrated by this image:



In the absence of any advance warning of the bus lane at all, the signage cannot be adequate for the purposes of regulation 18, therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

Further to this, in Karine Reinton v London Borough of Bromley (2210250967, 06 July 2021) the council failed to prove that its camera is properly prescribed and authorised under the Loncon Local Authorities Act 1996, should this matter proceed to the tribunal the council will be put to strict proof on this point.


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Incandescent
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 18:21
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We've seen this one before, which I think the OP won. This was some time ago, before the pandemic, I think. So, typical for London councils, absolutely NOTHING has been done to improve the signage or even re-orientate the sign so it's more visible. Can this be because it is a 'nice little earner' as it stands. Obviously with most people coughing-up, (99%), they don't want to do anything to improve compliance.

Sorry to sound so cynical but every time I look at cases like this, it reinforces my cynicism.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 16:26
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 19:21) *
We've seen this one before, which I think the OP won.

Yes, the OP was Karine Reinton.


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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 17:07
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Re your PM, I would send the representations ou have for now and please put any further information on here. Please do not PM me unless I have asked you to, otherwise my first reaction tends to be "who is this person and what is he talking about?", as you might imagine I have a lot of people trying to get in touch with me and PMs provide no context.

Any further images can be used to beef up the representations at the enforcement notice stage.


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Incandescent
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 17:10
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 17:26) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 19:21) *
We've seen this one before, which I think the OP won.

Yes, the OP was Karine Reinton.

Yes. I looked at it and the win was not on signage, but the camera approval issue. I note the council, very unusually, attended, probably because of the appeal basis, but did not refute the appeal.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 18:28
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 18:10) *
Yes. I looked at it and the win was not on signage, but the camera approval issue. I note the council, very unusually, attended, probably because of the appeal basis, but did not refute the appeal.

They attended because I served a notice requiring them to. In a bus lane case under the 1996 Act, you can compel them to attend and if they don't, the entire evidence pack becomes inadmissible.


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TKPK
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 16:21
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Hi CP8759

I sent off my appeal back in mid September, thank you for your help. I have just received a reply today and Bromley parking have decided not to cancel the PCN. I can scan in what they have sent me or email it to you but it would appear that they have not paid much attention to the appeal but have sent out a standard rejection letter.
I am not sure what I do next on this.

they mention that rather than paying

"Alternatively, if you wish to make formal representations regarding the PCN you will need to wait for the Enforcement Notice to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They will then be able to submit formal representations to the council "

I am the registered keeper, so why do I have to wait ? it seems this Enforcement Notice will only be sent out if I do nothing for 28 Days ?

A bit confused by this

TKPK
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Incandescent
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 17:18
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Apart from paying now,, the registered keeper, (who is this ?), has no other option other than to wait for the Enforcement Notice and submit representations against it. If these are refused, an appeal can be made to London Tribunals. The full PCN penalty is always in play at LT, so you need a good appeal argument. The fact they have just issued a Fob-Off letter is in your favour.
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cp8759
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 21:07
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Just wait for the Enforcement Notice and let us know when you get it.


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TKPK
post Wed, 3 Nov 2021 - 08:48
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Thank you both. I will do and yes I am the registered keeper.

TKPK
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TKPK
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:39
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Hi again,

I have just received the Enforcement Notice for this. It is Dated 25/11/2021 and I am supposed to pay £130.00 within 28 days. Can you please advise as to what I should do now ?

Thanks in advance

TKPK
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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 18:48
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I would just send the same representation again.


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TKPK
post Tue, 30 Nov 2021 - 09:53
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Hi,

Happy to do so if this is what you advise. However, a couple of things that might be worth mentioning. I believe that the signage in the last photograph on the submission may have been moved so that it is at a better angle now. A counter point to this is that my wife mentioned that, on entering Mitchell Way, she had to give way to a bus that then entered the bus park which is off to the left (off Mitchell Way). I visited the site and took some photos that clearly show that buses entering or leaving the bus park obscure the first signage mentioned above. Would it be helpful if I emailed these to you at this point ? If so, can I do this via a PM ?

Thanks,

TKPK

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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Nov 2021 - 13:25
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If the sign has moved, let the council prove that.

If you've got photos you want us to consider, put them on here please.


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TKPK
post Tue, 30 Nov 2021 - 17:13
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Here are the photos I believe to be relevant

One shows how sign is obscured if a single decker is entering the bus park, the second shows how 2 buses (one single decker entering and one double decker leaving) also obscure the sign.

Attached Image

Attached Image


Not too sure if this is relevant but this sign below on the corner as you turn seems to be advising staying Left ?

Attached Image


Let me know if these are useful ?

Thanks

TKPK
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