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5 OFFENCES SAME SPEED ON GREEN CAMERA, Can hardship caused to work dependants be used as mitigation?
Ontario
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:57
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Regretfully I have racked up 5 speeding offences by going through the same “speed on green” traffic light camera over a period of a month as part of my work commute.

As I was not the registered keeper and the registered keeper had not changed the address on the V5 document it was a while before I received my first notification. I now have all notifications 4 below 40mph and one at 46 mph all in a 30mph zone.
The letters received for the offences below 40mph have the same date of notice of intended prosecution whilst the offence above 40mph has a different date.

Given my age (I am no boy racer) I should know better than to hurtle through traffic lights and feel foolish and remorseful for my actions. I know I am very likely to be banned from driving.

The questions I would like help with are:

Should I complete the documents and send them in together and ask for them to be considered at the same time?

Could I argue that as I was not notified of the first offence I did not have the opportunity to adjust my speed? (tenuous, but clutching at straws)

How long could I be banned for?

My commute is 30 miles each way. Recently there have been road works adding to this time. The camera is at a junction where 200yds later the speed limit is 40mph.
In mitigation if I was banned instead of a two and a half hour daily commute (without road works) it would double to five hours by using public transport. Taxis would be too costly. Whilst I have no real dependants, it would affect the people I work for, who are dependent on my daily performance. I very often stay late at work. I could not do this if I used public transport. Similarly working on local buses and trains is not feasible. This would make me less effective at work.
My other options would be to find another job or retire. Neither of which are practical or affordable.

Could I use this in mitigation to avoid a ban?

Many thanks in advance for any responses and advice
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post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:57
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 20:16
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I'm in two minds as to mention "as evidenced by my clean driving licence" at some stage.

On the one hand they might be more inclined to do the same sum as you and know they only need to knock one offence off to leave you on nine points.

On the other hand you could reduce the chance of getting what seemsone of the more common deals where they give you one course and one fixed penalty.

If it was me I would probably mention it hoping it makes their choice easier knowing they are leaving you on nine points and a course, but it is a bit double or quits.

A few people who work in camera offices work on here. Hopefully they may have a view.
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Ontario
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 22:09
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That is certainly worth considering and makes a very valid point regarding my clean driving licence.

As the transgressions run over a month (as opposed to being on the same day or close together) I wonder what leeway may be given if any to combine them together. I will rewrite my letter taken into
account the advice on here and see what it looks like.

Thanks again
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peodude
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 11:34
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 21:16) *
I'm in two minds as to mention "as evidenced by my clean driving licence" at some stage.

On the one hand they might be more inclined to do the same sum as you and know they only need to knock one offence off to leave you on nine points.

On the other hand you could reduce the chance of getting what seemsone of the more common deals where they give you one course and one fixed penalty.

If it was me I would probably mention it hoping it makes their choice easier knowing they are leaving you on nine points and a course, but it is a bit double or quits.

A few people who work in camera offices work on here. Hopefully they may have a view.


Presumably the Traffic Office will have access to his license and likely check it anyway.
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Logician
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 13:18
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QUOTE (peodude @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 21:16) *
I'm in two minds as to mention "as evidenced by my clean driving licence" at some stage. On the one hand they might be more inclined to do the same sum as you and know they only need to knock one offence off to leave you on nine points. On the other hand you could reduce the chance of getting what seemsone of the more common deals where they give you one course and one fixed penalty. If it was me I would probably mention it hoping it makes their choice easier knowing they are leaving you on nine points and a course, but it is a bit double or quits. A few people who work in camera offices work on here. Hopefully they may have a view.
Presumably the Traffic Office will have access to his license and likely check it anyway.


"licence", license is the verb, as in advice and advise.



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wwstwh
post Thu, 2 May 2019 - 16:37
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Subscribed, relevant to my situation.

I offended the same camera twice within a week, and asked for them to be combined - but I received a personal and polite letter back saying that the speed limit was clear in that area (as, indeed, it is) and the offences must be dealt with separately.

Perhaps your local police will see it differently, and it's sure worth a try.

I have totted to 12 (all points within a few months) and am awaiting communication about court proceedings, I'll update you as well so you know what's coming!
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Ontario
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 15:49
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Likewise. Good luck.
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Ontario
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 07:52
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Hello all
Sadly my apologetic letter did not have the outcome I hoped for and I have received five letters for a conditional offer of a fixed penalty. One of the letters offers a speed awareness course.
As I am going to rack up 15 points or 12 points and going to be banned from driving do I take the course? Or do I leave it should god forbid, I stupidly make a careless error in the future?
Also do I complete the forms and send them in as part of the letter states that if I may be liable to be disqualified from driving and the fixed penalty procedure will not be available?
Thanks for all comments
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The Rookie
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 08:50
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I see no point in taking the course at all, you may as well keep your powder dry.

You can accept three of the FP's, send them all in together, DON'T FORGET YOUR LICENCE.


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andy_foster
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 09:16
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I would disagree with the assertion that there is no point in taking the course at all, but would not be in a hurry to recommend it.

Assuming that you have no viable defence, accepting COFPs is the cheapest and easiest way of disposing of the liability for the offences - albeit that you can only accept up to 3 of them. That would leave 2 offences which you cannot accept COFPs for. The magistrates' sentencing guidelines say that when an offer of a fixed penalty cannot be accepted for reasons unconnected with the offence, the court should consider sentencing at the equivalent level (it may be prudent to respectfully remind them of this). Otherwise you would be facing 2 fines at whatever rate is suggested by the general sentencing guidelines.

The other issue if you do not take the course is that you would need to ensure that the 2 remaining offences were heard together - assuming that you receive a totting ban, if both are heard together and you get a high score of 15 points, they would all be wiped when you are banned for totting up. However, if they were heard on separate occasions, you would get a totting ban, and then get 3 point for the second one. Similarly, if your exceptional hardship succeeds, the same grounds cannot be used again within 3 years - so if the offences were not heard together you would get banned when convicted for the second.

Getting the offences heard together is likely to take far less effort than giving up the best part of a day to take a speed awareness course so that the police can take a £35 kickback to fund the wonderful speed cameras, and may well happen without any intervention on your part.


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NewJudge
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 11:22
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 30 May 2019 - 10:16) *
The magistrates' sentencing guidelines say that when an offer of a fixed penalty cannot be accepted for reasons unconnected with the offence, the court should consider sentencing at the equivalent level (it may be prudent to respectfully remind them of this).

But the guidance also suggests that such reasons should be "outside the control of the offender". I would guess that the court will conclude that committing five speeding offences (or just the additional two under consideration to be more precise) in a short space of time is clearly within the control of the offender. I cannot see a FP equivalent being the outcome.

I would suggest accepting three FPs, ensuring the other two offences are heard together and presenting an Exceptional Hardship plea. This keeps a course in your locker which will be particularly useful if your EH plea is successful as you will be driving around with fifteen points for the best part of three years. It is essential that you have them heard together because in the worst case scenario you could appear for the first one, present a successful EH plea and walk away as happy as Larry. A week later you appear for the second one, are "totted up" again and cannot present a second EH plea using the same reasons.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Thu, 30 May 2019 - 11:25
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cp8759
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 13:22
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 30 May 2019 - 10:16) *
The magistrates' sentencing guidelines say that when an offer of a fixed penalty cannot be accepted for reasons unconnected with the offence, the court should consider sentencing at the equivalent level (it may be prudent to respectfully remind them of this). Otherwise you would be facing 2 fines at whatever rate is suggested by the general sentencing guidelines.

I see no chance of a court accepting that having too many points for a fixed penalty is a good reason to sentence at the fixed penalty level.


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andy_foster
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 13:52
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If the court have a degree of sympathy with the OP losing his licence because he had been caught 5 times before he was made aware of the need to change his driving habits, they might do. Unless the OP is otherwise going to do a speed awareness course, he has nothing to lose by asking.


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Ontario
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 09:37
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Thanks again for the advice.
I have spoken to the camera unit with a plan to take the fixed penalty on three notices and have the other two of the 5 offences heard in court together.
Given my main mitigation is that I had not received the notices as I am not the registered keeper and the notices went to an old address so I I could not adjust my driving.
Would it be worth having them all heard in court together? Or would this likely lead to a higher fin.
Thanks again
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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 09:50
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QUOTE (Ontario @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 10:37) *
Thanks again for the advice.
I have spoken to the camera unit with a plan to take the fixed penalty on three notices and have the other two of the 5 offences heard in court together.
Given my main mitigation is that I had not received the notices as I am not the registered keeper and the notices went to an old address so I I could not adjust my driving.
Would it be worth having them all heard in court together? Or would this likely lead to a higher fin.
Thanks again

That's not mitigation.

Its not really part of an exceptional hardship plea but I would certainly include it when presenting the EH plea as it is likely to garner some sympathy.

For EH to succeed it's essential to have them heard together, otherwise if you succeed with one you may well lose on the other (not being able to use the same argument) making the attempt a nullity.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Ontario
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 10:50
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Thanks for the reply.

My previous message was a bit ambiguous
.
I meant is it worth taking all 5 offences to court and have them heard at the same time?

Or should I take the fixed penalty and 3 points on three of the offences and have the other two heard together?

Or should I take the fixed penalty and 3 points on three of the offences and take a speed awareness course on the 4th offence and have the last one heard in court?

Thanks

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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:25
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QUOTE (Ontario @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:50) *
I meant is it worth taking all 5 offences to court and have them heard at the same time?

No, you risk not being penalised at FP level for a number of them costing you more money.

QUOTE (Ontario @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:50) *
Or should I take the fixed penalty and 3 points on three of the offences and have the other two heard together?

That is what I would do.

QUOTE (Ontario @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:50) *
Or should I take the fixed penalty and 3 points on three of the offences and take a speed awareness course on the 4th offence and have the last one heard in court?

I wouldn't, if you get caught again in the next three years you'll have lost the chance of a course and risk a 6 month ban.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Ontario
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 19:03
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Thanks for the help.

I will consider my options and keep posting.

There is a long way still to go…..
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