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Pushing motorcycle through a 'no entry' sign, Legal to push your bike?
DM73
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:20
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Hi, I'm posting for the first time, so would really appreciate some help.

My local borough (London Borough of Waltham Forest) have introduced a range of road changes dubbed 'mini-holland'. This includes sections of road that you can no longer drive through (modal filters).

Recently some of these modal filters have had no entry signs for cars and motorcycles put up - the former being ironic as they are only wide enough to get a bike through.

I have been issued a PCN for PUSHING my moped through one of these modal filters (See attached still from CCTV).

Having done some research I found the following https://swarb.co.uk/selby-justin-v-director...tions-qbd-1994/ which states riding only takes place if a person is being carried by their vehicle. As I was walking with mine, I would like to understand if there are grounds for appeal? The alleged contravention is 52M - Failure to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles).

All help would be appreciated.

Regards
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post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:20
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stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:26
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This has come up a few times and this case is not good news for you:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t119006.html

Anyway, post all the PCN.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:28
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DM73
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 17:01
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Thanks Stamfordman - I'll do it this evening.
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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 10:43
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Hi, I've added links to the PCN below.

https://ibb.co/whDSmxC
https://ibb.co/F55096B
https://ibb.co/dWBWds8
https://ibb.co/W0G3sWv
https://ibb.co/jy40QGJ

Hopefully that comes out ok.

Thanks in advance for the support.
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:40
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The sign is called "flying motorcycle" and means "no motor vehicles", which therefore includes buses and lorries even though such are not pictured. In any case it includes motorcycles, whether ridden or pushed.

The contravention code appears to be correct.

I see one visible sign clearly indicating the restriction too, and there has been case history. This may be a case where you have to bite the bullet and pay the discount.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:03
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OP, what you seem to be saying is that you consider that you can approach on your motorbike, dismount and wheel it through the gap and past the sign, then start it up and carry on riding and should not get a PCN. Well, sorry, they have thought of that in the legislation.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:16
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Why were you pushing it?
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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:28
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:40) *
The sign is called "flying motorcycle" and means "no motor vehicles", which therefore includes buses and lorries even though such are not pictured. In any case it includes motorcycles, whether ridden or pushed.

The contravention code appears to be correct.

I see one visible sign clearly indicating the restriction too, and there has been case history. This may be a case where you have to bite the bullet and pay the discount.


Thanks for your response. First PCN in 25 years, so looks like I'll have to take this one on the chin


QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:03) *
OP, what you seem to be saying is that you consider that you can approach on your motorbike, dismount and wheel it through the gap and past the sign, then start it up and carry on riding and should not get a PCN. Well, sorry, they have thought of that in the legislation.


Some of these modal filters in LBWF have the no entry sign, but most of them don't. So what I was asking is whether an offence occured if I was pushing the bike through rather than riding. If an offence has occured, then I'll pay the fine, put it down to experience and move on.
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Neil B
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:31
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QUOTE (DM73 @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:28) *
Some of these modal filters in LBWF have the no entry sign, but most of them don't. So what I was asking is whether an offence occured if I was pushing the bike through rather than riding. If an offence has occured, then I'll pay the fine, put it down to experience and move on.

Where did you remount?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:45
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:16) *
Why were you pushing it?


These modal filters are relatively new, and it's only in the last month or so that some of have had the no entry sign put up (most don't have a no entry sign).

The reason I was pushing it is that I saw the no entry sign at the last minute and didn't want to drive through - I assumed pushing it through would have been acceptable. Clearly not.

Elsewhere https://swarb.co.uk/selby-justin-v-director...tions-qbd-1994/ it seems to suggest pushing your motorbike on a pavement isn't seen as riding - perhaps I would have been better off dismounting and pushing it on the pavement for 10 metres or so.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:31) *
QUOTE (DM73 @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:28) *
Some of these modal filters in LBWF have the no entry sign, but most of them don't. So what I was asking is whether an offence occured if I was pushing the bike through rather than riding. If an offence has occured, then I'll pay the fine, put it down to experience and move on.

Where did you remount?


I pushed it through the modal and to the edge of a side road and then got back on.
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Neil B
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:58
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:03) *
Well, sorry, they have thought of that in the legislation.

Have they? Where please? I'm not sure.

QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:40) *
The sign is called "flying motorcycle" and means "no motor vehicles", which therefore includes buses and lorries even though such are not pictured. In any case it includes motorcycles, whether ridden or pushed.

I'm not sure. Citation please.

I believe, for instance, you can push a cycle past a 'no vehicles' sign.
Doesn't seem different.

LG notice of the order.
Different to Orford Rd where the area beyond is restricted.

Need Mad Mick on this.

in Greenleaf Road (GLR) - (i) introduced a road closure (except for cycles)



This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:06


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:07
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:03) *
Well, sorry, they have thought of that in the legislation.

Have they? Where please? I'm not sure.

QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:40) *
The sign is called "flying motorcycle" and means "no motor vehicles", which therefore includes buses and lorries even though such are not pictured. In any case it includes motorcycles, whether ridden or pushed.

I'm not sure. Citation please.

I believe, for instance, you can push a cycle past a 'no vehicles' sign.
Doesn't seem different.

LG notice of the order.
Different to Orford Rd where the area beyond is restricted. Here it seems to be 'entry'.

Need Mad Mick on this.

in Greenleaf Road (GLR) - (i) introduced a road closure (except for cycles) -------------
------------prevented vehicles from entering Greenleaf Road at its junction with Forest Road where entry to that
road is prohibited by a no-entry sign plate;


Query sign?


Thanks Neil. You're correct, the road beyond the modal filter is 2 way and therefore not restricted to traffic unlike Orford Rd where there is no modal filter - simply a no entry between 1000-2200 from memory.

When you say 'query' the sign, are you suggesting it might not be legal as displayed?


QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 12:03) *
Well, sorry, they have thought of that in the legislation.

Have they? Where please? I'm not sure.

QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:40) *
The sign is called "flying motorcycle" and means "no motor vehicles", which therefore includes buses and lorries even though such are not pictured. In any case it includes motorcycles, whether ridden or pushed.

I'm not sure. Citation please.

I believe, for instance, you can push a cycle past a 'no vehicles' sign.
Doesn't seem different.

LG notice of the order.
Different to Orford Rd where the area beyond is restricted. Here it seems to be 'entry'.

Need Mad Mick on this.

in Greenleaf Road (GLR) - (i) introduced a road closure (except for cycles) -------------
------------prevented vehicles from entering Greenleaf Road at its junction with Forest Road where entry to that
road is prohibited by a no-entry sign plate;


Query sign?


Just to clarify, I entered Greenleaf Road from Hoe St, which does not have a 'no entry' sign - just the modal filter half way down Greenleaf Road. If you try and enter Greenleaf Road from Forest Road, there is a no entry sign showing, so you cannot enter the road from that side.
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Neil B
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:09
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QUOTE (DM73 @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:05) *
When you say 'query' the sign, are you suggesting it might not be legal as displayed?

I've edited that out because wrong end.

Where exactly is this? Google streetview link?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:16
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:09) *
QUOTE (DM73 @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:05) *
When you say 'query' the sign, are you suggesting it might not be legal as displayed?

I've edited that out because wrong end.

Where exactly is this? Google streetview link?


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5877694,-0....3312!8i6656

This is before they put up the no entry sign you see in one of the images I posted up. This view would have been my view on my approach (albeit I was approaching in the dark).

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Neil B
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:21
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I've messaged a member most likely to enlighten us.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:33
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The case that MMV cited in the link I gave earlier - http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t119006.html - certainly raised his hackles but it didn't go anyway, not then anyway.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:04
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I think the Laycock Street case is still relevant and the OP is bang to rights (even though I still disagree with the circumstances of Laycock Street). He took a motorised vehicle through a prohibition sign which bans motorised vehicles.

The only way he could escape is if he started and continued on the footway then we would be in the territory of Sect 72 of the Highway Act 1835 (a police matter)---


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72


I don't know how these mini-Holland schemes operate--are they Pedestrian Zones?


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:05
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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:17
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:04) *
I think the Laycock Street case is still relevant and the OP is bang to rights (even though I still disagree with the circumstances of Laycock Street). He took a motorised vehicle through a prohibition sign which bans motorised vehicles.

The only way he could escape is if he started and continued on the footway then we would be in the territory of Sect 72 of the Highway Act 1835 (a police matter)---


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72


I don't know how these mini-Holland schemes operate--are they Pedestrian Zones?


Mick


Hi Mick.

The mini holland schemes have largely been designed to stop cars taking short cuts through side roads and to keep them on the main roads. It is argued this will reduce pollution, and make the side roads more pedestrian and bike friendly. The scheme in LBWF cost £25m and created a number of bike lanes, often at the expense of reducing or removing bus lanes.

The areas themselves are not Pedestrian Zones (I know one exception which is Orford Rd that is a pedestrian zone from approx 1000-2200).

I pushed my motorcycle through a modal filter designed to stop cars from driving from one end of a road, to another. Recently some of these filters have put up the no entry signs referred to previously.

Hope that provides sufficient background. Essentially I'm trying to work out if pushing a bike through this filter is correctly deemed as an offence and therefore the PCN issued ir correct. As mentioned, it appears pushing a motorbike on the pavement, engine off, is not deemed as a PCN offence, although as you point out could be deemed a police matter.
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phantomcrusader
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:19
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sign means motor vehicles prohibited. Motor vehicle is defined; “motor vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads.

Is a motorcyle that is switched off and being propelled by human power a "mechanically propelled vehicle" for the duration? I suppose it comes down to how loosely one wants to interpret the law.
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DM73
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 18:19
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 17:21) *
I've messaged a member most likely to enlighten us.


Thanks Neil.
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