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PCN Out of Time Declaration rejected ... is it worth appealing?
blackberryjam
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 21:44
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Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on whether it's worth appealing the rejection of my Out of Time Declaration and if so, should I pay the extra for a hearing with the District Judge. I've also just returned from my honeymoon and the rejection was received whilst I was away, meaning I'm outside of the 14 days to appeal. I spoke to TEC and they advised that I can appeal anyway and explain the reasons why it is late.

I had another call from Equita this morning advising they will be visiting my property this week unless I pay the fine of over £300 straight away. I would like to fight this all the way as I believe it's completely unjust (see timeline below for further details) but I can't afford to spend lots off money to register the appeal, legal advice, court costs etc if my chances of winning the appeal are slim.

18/08/17 Date of contravention for congestion charge fine

21/08/17 Moved out of the property where my car was registered. Sent Vehicle Logbook (V5C) with updated address to DVLA within days of moving out

21/08/17 Payment made online within designated period (19th and 20th August were a Saturday and Sunday). Didn’t receive an email receipt so took a screen shot of the page that advised transaction is successful.

24/08/17 PCN issued but didn’t receive it until a few weeks later when I visited my old house to collect mail.

18/09/17 Change of address actioned at DVLA. Sent Vehicle Logbook (V5C) with updated address a couple of weeks prior. Updated V5C received at new address shortly after.

19/09/17 Appealed PCN on the basis that I had paid the congestion charge on time (or thought I had), given the “transaction successful” message that was on the screenshot from 21/08/17 that I attached to the appeal. I checked my credit card statement and couldn’t find the payment coming out.

27/09/17 Additional evidence request sent out - card number used, date and time payment made etc. This was sent to my old address and therefore not received.

30/10/17 TFL rejected my appeal as additional evidence not received.

19/03/18 Equita informed TFL Congestion Charge of COA

11/07/18 First letter received from Equita advising my case is being prepared for enforcement action.

13/07/18 Contacted Equita, TFL Congestion Charge dept. and Traffic Enforcement Centre to find out what this related to. Also contacted CAB and National Debtline for advice.

18/07/18 Contacted Traffic Enforcement Centre to ensure I had correct forms to complete. they emailed me the PE2 and PE3 to complete with instructions. Also contacted Congestion Charge customer services to gather further information such as dates the letters were issued

19/07/18 Sent completed PE2 and PE3 forms by email to TEC

06/08/18 TFL letter sent advising that they remain satisfied that the enforcement of the relevant PCN is correct and have therefore challenged my out of time statutory declaration

25/08/18 Letter sent from TEC stating that my out of office statutory declaration had been rejected. No explanation for the rejection was provided. As I was out of the country for my wedding and honeymoon from 26/08/18 until 15/09/18 I did not open this letter until 17/09/18. I was therefore unable to appeal via the N244 form within the 14 days from the date the letter was served.


Thanks in advance!
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post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 21:44
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Neil B
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:12
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Unless I'm missing something I can't see what you could have ticked on PE3?

Which box did you tick?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 07:25
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These are the key elements IMO:

24/08/17 PCN issued but didn’t receive it until a few weeks later when I visited my old house to collect mail.


19/09/17 Appealed PCN

Your current problem has arisen because you did not respond to the OfR in time.

Your account skips 5 months from Oct 2017 to Mar 2018 during which period the OfR would have been sent, presumably to your old address.

And this is my concern.

You say you made reps against the PCN. But what address did you put in your correspondence and were TFL then obligated to use that address? Clearly they didn’t use your new address, but IMO the key question is ..were they required to by virtue of your reps? Only your reps and any subsequent correspondence from you could help here.

And if they were, then IMO you could stretch the meaning of the second SD grounds to include them not replying to the correct address as having the same meaning as not responding to the reps.

We also need your OOT submission.
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 08:07
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QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:44) *
30/10/17 TFL rejected my appeal as additional evidence not received.

?
What are you saying here? How do you know?

In cases where we advise on applications to a Court, we can't guess, assume or put words in your mouth.
We need clarity.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:28
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 08:25) *
These are the key elements IMO:

24/08/17 PCN issued but didn’t receive it until a few weeks later when I visited my old house to collect mail.


19/09/17 Appealed PCN

Your current problem has arisen because you did not respond to the OfR in time.

Your account skips 5 months from Oct 2017 to Mar 2018 during which period the OfR would have been sent, presumably to your old address.

And this is my concern.

You say you made reps against the PCN. But what address did you put in your correspondence and were TFL then obligated to use that address? Clearly they didn’t use your new address, but IMO the key question is ..were they required to by virtue of your reps? Only your reps and any subsequent correspondence from you could help here.

And if they were, then IMO you could stretch the meaning of the second SD grounds to include them not replying to the correct address as having the same meaning as not responding to the reps.

We also need your OOT submission.



First of all, thanks for looking into this!

I completed my representation online and I can't remember changing my address through the TFL portal. I realise this isn't the case now but I also thought that TFL would be aware of any address changes at DVLA or that I would receive a response via email. I understand that I'm not going to get the sympathy vote but it was an extremely stressful time in Aug/Sept last year. My first house that I had purchased needed major unexpected repairs so I lived in 4 different places during the 6 weeks whilst I was repairing the house and working full time.

I have attached my OOT declaration with any personal information removed.[attachment=58263:PE2_and_...uly_2018.pdf]

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:07) *
QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:44) *
30/10/17 TFL rejected my appeal as additional evidence not received.

?
What are you saying here? How do you know?

In cases where we advise on applications to a Court, we can't guess, assume or put words in your mouth.
We need clarity.


Hi Neil,

I contacted TFL on 18/07/18 to ask for details of the PCN and they sent me the ticket history and a copy of the representation rejected letter they issued on 30/10/18, this time to my correct address.

Thanks
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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 10:10
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I've re-attached my OOT declaration as the document title had my name on it.

This post has been edited by blackberryjam: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 10:12
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Submitted_OOT_Declaration__PE2_and_PE3_.pdf ( 1.14MB ) Number of downloads: 27
 
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hcandersen
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:25
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IMO TEC did not reject your OOT because of the merits of your case, they rejected it because your OOT was insufficiently robust.

Before you compose an OOT, or in this case now your submission to the DJ, you have to try and put yourself in their shoes: what would they want to see in a submission, what are the key points?

I suggest these are:
That the authority were not at fault as such, but their online system for making representations is;
The authority were using an address at which you were not resident and at which after you’d made reps you could not be contacted and which was NOT after that date the RK address held by DVLA.
You could not respond to the OfR in time because it was not received by you;
Your OOT was compiled poorly and you are paying the price, literally, to put this right.
You hope that the DJ would grant your application based on the circumstances of your case and the principles of fairness.

IMO, don’t put the timeline in your narrative, keep this short and punchy. Put the timeline as an appendix.

I respectfully request that the court officer’s decision be reviewed and my statutory declaration be permitted to be submitted. I apologise for taking matters to this stage and had I made my out of time submission clearer in the first instance then I’m certain that it would have been allowed.

The essential facts of this case are that after submitting representations against the PCN I received none of the required statutory notices and was unaware that matters had progressed until contacted by enforcement agents. The reasons for this are that:

I only came into possession of the PCN when (by chance) I returned to my previous property out of which I had already moved.
I immediately made representations using the council’s online system which does not ask for an address but presumes that a response should be sent to the address used for the PCN. In most cases this would not be a problem, but for me it was because as can be seen in the enclosed timeline, I had already moved out of that property and notified DVLA of my new contact details.
I wrongly presumed that prior to issuing a response the authority would obtain updated details from DVLA, but they did not. Instead they continued to use an out of date address and I was not able to correct this as none of their correspondence was received.


21/08/17 Moved out of the property where my car was registered. Immediately sent Vehicle Logbook (V5C) with updated address to DVLA

24/08/17 PCN issued

18/09/17 Change of address actioned at DVLA. See copy of V5C

19/09/17 Appealed PCN

Thoughts?
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ford poplar
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:37
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Did DVLA update & send you new V5c?
What is the doc ref date?
That is the date your details were updated
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:49
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While I'm not disputing HCA's suggestion and wholly correct comments I still think there' some sweeping
up to do.
I'm still back on basic facts -
QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 10:28) *
the representation rejected letter they issued on 30/10/18, this time to my correct address.

But both your PE3 and PE2 say you didn't receive it?

--
I also think we need to see the text of your representations both for tidiness and for potentially useful ammo.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:00
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:37) *
Did DVLA update & send you new V5c?
What is the doc ref date?
That is the date your details were updated


Hi, the V5C doc ref date is 18/09/17. I appealed the PCN online on 19/09/17.

This post has been edited by blackberryjam: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:21
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hcandersen
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:04
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Eats shoots and leaves..or

Eats, shoots and leaves! smile.gif

The full quote is:
I contacted TFL on 18/07/18 to ask for details of the PCN and they sent me the ticket history and a copy of the representation rejected letter they issued on 30/10/18, this time to my correct address.

OP contacted TFL on 18 July this year. .....and gave them their current address.
TfL sent copy of 2017 letter sent to old address but this time to the OP’s 2018 address.

No contradiction IMO.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:06
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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:05
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:49) *
While I'm not disputing HCA's suggestion and wholly correct comments I still think there' some sweeping
up to do.
I'm still back on basic facts -
QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 10:28) *
the representation rejected letter they issued on 30/10/18, this time to my correct address.

But both your PE3 and PE2 say you didn't receive it?

--
I also think we need to see the text of your representations both for tidiness and for potentially useful ammo.


Yes, that's right, the PE2 and PE3 both stated I didn't receive the rejection letter.

I attached the completed PE2 and PE3 form earlier in the thread if you need to see the text of the OOT declaration, but I don't have the text available from my representation against the original PCN.

Thanks
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:11
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 13:04) *
Eats shoots and leaves..or

Eats, shoots and leaves! smile.gif

The full quote is:
I contacted TFL on 18/07/18 to ask for details of the PCN and they sent me the ticket history and a copy of the representation rejected letter they issued on 30/10/18, this time to my correct address.

OP contacted TFL on 18 July this year. .....and gave them their current address.
TfL sent copy of 2017 letter sent to old address but this time to the OP’s 2018 address.

No contradiction IMO.

Aha.
Oh, a copy. That's what I missed.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:13
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Your actual reps are not the issue.

That you did not receive any response is, however.

You’re already beyond the statutory period for applying for a review, so let’s not burden ourselves with having to find another reason for even more lateness.
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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 13:13) *
Your actual reps are not the issue.

That you did not receive any response is, however.

You’re already beyond the statutory period for applying for a review, so let’s not burden ourselves with having to find another reason for even more lateness.



Understood! I appreciate I'm already late in submitting a N244 so need to send this off ASAP.

Your recommendations above make sense so thanks for drafting the text that I can use.

Apologies for any confusion caused by mixing up my 2018 and 2017 dates too! : )
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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 13:50
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I forgot to ask on my last post, would you recommend paying the £255 for the review by a DJ with a hearing given my circumstances, as opposed to the £100 fee for a review without a hearing?

Thanks again!
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:00
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QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:50) *
I forgot to ask on my last post, would you recommend paying the £255 for the review by a DJ with a hearing given my circumstances, as opposed to the £100 fee for a review without a hearing?

Thanks again!

Only ever the £100 option.
These are dealt with by TEC DJs, experienced in the relevant issues.
But obviously you have to get the facts across in writing.

--
Your 'reasons for late filing' (this latest delay only) go in box 3.

Perhaps - on hols, followed by seeking advice from -- (as you described here)
Maybe (?)-- Conclude by politely pointing out you have only been aware 10 days

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:02


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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blackberryjam
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:08
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (blackberryjam @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:50) *
I forgot to ask on my last post, would you recommend paying the £255 for the review by a DJ with a hearing given my circumstances, as opposed to the £100 fee for a review without a hearing?

Thanks again!

Only ever the £100 option.
These are dealt with by TEC DJs, experienced in the relevant issues.
But obviously you have to get the facts across in writing.

--
Your 'reasons for late filing' (this latest delay only) go in box 3.

Perhaps - on hols, followed by seeking advice from -- (as you described here)
Maybe (?)-- Conclude by politely pointing out you have only been aware 10 days


That's good to know! Thanks Neil!
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 14:10
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For N244 applications you ideally need to start (phoning TEC) by 3.30 latest. Processing cut-off is 4pm.
They'll redirect to the fees Dept and one or the other will tell you when to e-mail file it.

DON'T forget any attachments, e.g. appendix, evidence of address change, updated V5C, as they won't
allow anything to be added later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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blackberryjam
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:25) *
I respectfully request that the court officer’s decision be reviewed and my statutory declaration be permitted to be submitted. I apologise for taking matters to this stage and had I made my out of time submission clearer in the first instance then I’m certain that it would have been allowed.

The essential facts of this case are that after submitting representations against the PCN I received none of the required statutory notices and was unaware that matters had progressed until contacted by enforcement agents. The reasons for this are that:

I only came into possession of the PCN when (by chance) I returned to my previous property out of which I had already moved.
I immediately made representations using the council’s online system which does not ask for an address but presumes that a response should be sent to the address used for the PCN. In most cases this would not be a problem, but for me it was because as can be seen in the enclosed timeline, I had already moved out of that property and notified DVLA of my new contact details.
I wrongly presumed that prior to issuing a response the authority would obtain updated details from DVLA, but they did not. Instead they continued to use an out of date address and I was not able to correct this as none of their correspondence was received.


Hi again,

I'm just completing the N244 form and I want to be sure that I'm doing this correctly.

The N244 Guidance Notes state that I need to include this exact statement in Part 3:

"I wish to apply for a review of the Court Officer’s Order" (stating reasons why)

Should the text that you kindly drafted above therefore be included in Part 3 (What order are you asking the court to make and why?), or should it be in Part 10 (What information will you be relying on, in support of your application?)?

I'm also going to include the following text in Part 3, as instructed in the Guidance Notes:

"I wish to apply for leave to file an application to review the Court Officer’s decision outside the 14 days of service because I was only made aware of the Court Officer's Order 10 days ago when I returned from my honeymoon. Since being made aware of the order I have sought advice from various parties before submitting this application."


Thanks!

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