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Ticket from PCM
I-LOV-MONEY
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 17:22
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Hi guys. I have today received a notification of 'Parking Charge to Keeper.'

As you will see from the photo the car was in a parking bay which (presumably) belongs to Sainsbury's. There is one other shop next door, a chemist. Across the road is the local council office, and on the ground floor there is a cafe. (All that is relatively unimportant!).


You will see behind my car, on the second photo, is a yellow notice on the wall. In fact there are two! A large one and below a smaller one

The letter from PCM states I was parked there at a specific time. It does not say that I was over the 30 minute limit nor does it say that I was not in Sainsbury's (how would they know unless they have a camera following me!). I thought I would base my letter to them on those two facts, and asking them to provide evidence of both 'offences'. Do you agree? I have just noticed there is nowhere on the photos that show the date of the 'offence'. Should the photo be time-stamped?

I notice the date PCN was issued (on the payment slip) is different from the date of posting of this notice and date this notice is given. BTW I didn't receive a ticket on the vehicle. Are either of these points relevant?

Incidentally my own residental street about half a mile away is also controlled by PCM (residents were given free permits). Rarely do we see anybody from PCM checking vehicles. There are some there that have been parked for some time without a permit. Is it worth mentioning that as a PS to my main letter?
Thanks in advance for your help.

This post has been edited by I-LOV-MONEY: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 17:26


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post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 17:22
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 20:30
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Another thought that I had. Do they have to prove that I broke their rule for both 'offences'? If they could prove I was there for 35 minutes, but couldn't prove that I didn't go to Sainsbury's, is 1 out of 2 make me liable?


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DWMB2
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 20:45
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There's a rather glaring issue here... You have a Notice from PCM, but the signage you have shown us is from Euro Car Parks, a different company entirely.

Did you take the photos yourself, or have you lifted them from Google Street View? You'll need to go to the site and take some photos of the layout and all signage at the site. In particular, you need to see if PCM have made clear what land they are authorised to operate on, and if it was clear that the car was parked on land they manage.


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 22:21
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Thank you. I really didn't notice that. I just presumed that was the signage they were referring to.I took the photos, and will go back tomorrow and have another look. I know the other side of the car park, where there is no parking, there are only one set of signs and they are definitely PCM (they look the same as those in my street).
However, it is the 'official' parking side what I am concerned about, and as I said will check it out.


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Redx
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 22:41
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They are asserting that the vehicle was in a bay that they monitor, so the other bays and parking companies are irrelevant

All that matters is, does the bay they refer to have a contract between themselves and the landowner.? Either it does or it doesn't

If it does, did the driver breach the parking contract and are they owed money.? If yes, can they transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.?
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DWMB2
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 22:42
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QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:21) *
it is the 'official' parking side what I am concerned about, and as I said will check it out.

It is the whole car park you need to be concerned about. Photos of the layout of the whole car park, and all signage will be useful, as you may need it in order to argue that the signage was insufficient, if that's the route this ends up going down.


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 22:57
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QUOTE (Redx @ Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:41) *
They are asserting that the vehicle was in a bay that they monitor, so the other bays and parking companies are irrelevant

All that matters is, does the bay they refer to have a contract between themselves and the landowner.? Either it does or it doesn't

If it does, did the driver breach the parking contract and are they owed money.? If yes, can they transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.?


I seem to remember looking previously at the bay numbers, and I think all, if not the majority of the parking spaces fall into 1-14 which is what is on the signage.
The question, I see, is what is the other company (Euro) are doing there? Are they both monitioring the car park?! I will check all the signage tomorrow.


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DWMB2
post Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:11
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QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:57) *
The question, I see, is what is the other company (Euro) are doing there? Are they both monitioring the car park?! I will check all the signage tomorrow.

Potentially monitoring different parts of it - it's entirely possible that parts of the car park are owned by different parties, who have employed different companies to manage their respective 'patches'. If this is the case, the boundaries between them should be clear, but of course may not be. Hence why photos of the signage and layout are likely to be very useful.


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 09:41
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Apologies for not getting back to everyone last night. My PC crashed, and have only just been able to reconnect.
I will go to the site and make notes and photos there, around lunchtime, and report back here.
Thank you all again for your help.


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 13:12
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I have been to the car park. This is what I have found


The PCM notice (close to the Euro parking sign, which I posted yesterday). This sign says that you have to have a valid parking permit displayed. It does not say where one can obtain this permit.


This is an anonymous sign - it doesn't say whose sign it is!




The Euro car parks sign



This is the view of the street. The first two or three bays (from the left) have no bay numbers, and Bay 1 starts beyond these two or three spaces.


By the photo on my ticket, I was obviously parked in a bay.



Finally one of two entrances to the car park.


I don't know why, but when I click on the images, some bring up the picture, but others take me back to postimages.org. Hopefully there is sufficient information that can be read. If you have other suggestions, please let me know.



Incidentally when I got out of my car to take the photos, I saw a woman waiting for a space to become vacant. It turned out she works for Sainsbury's. She said they don't own the car park, but she thinks it is leased. I asked her about the 30 minute timing / Sainsbury's. She said they record how long you have been there. However, it doesn't say that on the ticket. Should that information be shown? There are two cameras she said, but nothing to do with the parking.




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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 18:19
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Hi. Having posted some photos of the site / signage, can anyone please give me some help as to the line of my appeal?

Thanks.


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Redx
post Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 20:46
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QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:57) *
QUOTE (Redx @ Wed, 12 Apr 2023 - 23:41) *
They are asserting that the vehicle was in a bay that they monitor, so the other bays and parking companies are irrelevant

All that matters is, does the bay they refer to have a contract between themselves and the landowner.? Either it does or it doesn't

If it does, did the driver breach the parking contract and are they owed money.? If yes, can they transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.?


I seem to remember looking previously at the bay numbers, and I think all, if not the majority of the parking spaces fall into 1-14 which is what is on the signage.
The question, I see, is what is the other company (Euro) are doing there? Are they both monitioring the car park?! I will check all the signage tomorrow.



I don't think that you have answered these questions yet, but even if you do answer them, what makes you believe that you mean grounds for appeal.?

What do you expect to get from appealing.? ( PCM won't cancel the pcn no matter what is within the appeal, the IAS will likely conclude that the pcn was correctly issued, which is what PCM will state)

So even if you do decide to appeal, it will be rejected and you are back to square one

You can try arguing about the signage and landowners authority if you want, plus pofa compliance if they failed pofa

It's worth knowing why you are thinking of appealing, because to play the game you should know that you have a case and know what you expect from doing so, which isn't apparent so far

This post has been edited by Redx: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 21:26
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 21:03
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You certainly have so many problems with parking on private land. What are they?
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 22:35
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Firstly I consider that the PCM sign and Euro signs are very close to each other to be confusing. The Euro signs are clearer and bolder. It is not immediately apparent from the photo that I was not parked in a Euro bay (1-14). The PCM sign refers to a permit, but doesn't say how / why one can obtain a permit.

Is it usual to have two different parking companies responsible for different parts of one row of parking bays?

There are, incidentally, some bays at the other end of the row, that are clearly marked (by a third parking company), with a sign at vehicle height, that it is for disabled use only.

The letter says that full photographic evidence is available at www.paymypcn-uk.co.uk I have tried on my PC, my iPad and iPhone and none of them can bring up the site. It is more than likely to be a temporary fault. I expect if I use that as part of my 'defence', even if they have not noticed it previously it will suddenly be fixed.

Is it likely that my representation be dealt with, within the 14 day discount period?

In answer to Redx's questions - contract between PCM and landowner - how do I find out? The store is one of Sainsbury's local stores, and I don't know if they have any senior staff there, other than shop assistants. I don't understand about breach of parking contract ...who is owed money?

This post has been edited by I-LOV-MONEY: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 09:39


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DWMB2
post Sat, 15 Apr 2023 - 23:26
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QUOTE
Obviously, what PCM don't know is...
Unless they read it on here. Worth editing that.

Have we established yet exactly where the vehicle was parked, and where this is in relation to the various bits of signage?


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 10:17
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 00:26) *
Have we established yet exactly where the vehicle was parked, and where this is in relation to the various bits of signage?

I had previously removed personal information from the image of the letter.

I am hoping if the photo site is up and running, then it will become clearer exactly where I parked. I expect, although at this point am not sure, that I was on the first bay where PCM take over from Euro. Each bay looks exactly the same, except some have a bay number painted on them.

This post has been edited by I-LOV-MONEY: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 10:24


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 11:11
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The photo site is running today. I have the photo 'evidence' as presented there.

My car is the second from the left. Parking bay numbers are not clearly visible, on the roadway, in front of the vehicle.

I expect Bay 1 to be either my vehicle or one(s) to the right. There are three bright, clear, bold wall signs there (Euro), and one relatively small sign, PCM. There is also an orange sign about no responsibilty for loss or damage while in the car park. When one parks, one goes for an available space, and your eyes are directed towards the clear bright signs. It looks as if my vehicle is directly below the PCM one.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 11:25
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Where is this?

OP, you must host photos externally and link here, your photos are unreadable.

This is not a compare and contrast exercise. PCM must display entrance signs - page 28 https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/...Practice_v8.pdf - and then erect signs which clearly show or describe the controlled land to which their conditions apply.

So we need clear entrance signs, both PCM and Euro if they're both displayed at your entrance, and those with specific conditions. What you've posted so far is not good enough.

The 14-day discount is not a risk-free appeals period. Whether you appeal within or outside this period is not relevant unless the PCN states that in the event of an unsuccessful appeal being submitted within the period they will re-offer the discount. Otherwise it's up to the creditor whether they re-offer or not.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 20:54
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 17:49
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Apologies for not replying earlier.

The pics I put on postimages.org and then select the link for forums and post here. I used to use tinypic many years ago, but I see they no longer operate. Can you suggest anything (not too difficult!) that I could use instead?

There are two entrances to the car park, but only one exit (it is marked no entry - to exit - at one entrance). At this first entrance there is one sign (relatively small) on both angles of the wall (relatively high) as you come in. These are the bays that are PCM controlled. At the other entrance, I don't think there are any signs. As you come in along the side of a local Council building, you turn into the car park, and the first few spaces are marked for disabled users, then you have the bays which are Euro's. There are signs along the area; mainly black print on yellow background, and are large enough and quite clear and are easily read.

I shall have another look tomorrow, just to confirm that this information is correct.

Is there anything else I should provide?


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hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Apr 2023 - 21:01
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If the driver entered where the PCM signs are erected then it is their obligation to look for PCM signs within the controlled land which give the PCM specifics.

We can see PCM signs but not read them.

The driver was required to either park within the areas specified in the PCM signs and comply with their conditions or park elsewhere.

Hopefully this gives you the context you need to take pertinent photos.

In short:
Entered via PCM-signed entrance, y/n?
Parked within PCM sphere of operation, y/n?
Complied with the conditions, y/n?
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