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S172 notice for careless driving but no NIP, Threads merged
Seaview
post Fri, 27 Nov 2020 - 11:24
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Hello forum,
I would very much appreciate some advice as were a bit in shock right now. What fantastic place this is, I really wish I had found this forum earlier as I have already emailed the email address on the s172 notice which I now realise was naïve.

The facts are as follows:
- My partner has received an S172 request for information to identify the driver from Northumbria Police force regarding a report of alleged careless driving
- A very specific time and location was included using whatthreewords which is on the main road just about 100 metres from the entrance to our street.
- The notice was issued by the “Fixed penalty unit”
- No NIP was included
- No mention of evidence was included, it only states that the alleged offence was reported.
- The alleged offence was committed on the 07/11/20 and the s172 letter is dated 25/11/20.

Our observations so far are:
- Only myself and my partner have access to the car. We do not recall the offence and are shocked at the notice.
- My partners car is a very small, slow, basic car which we don't/cant drive fast although I appreciate that any car can be driven carelessly given the right circumstances. There are no red lights or crossing on the stretch of road and we never use mobile phones. We really can’t understand what it might be in connection with.
- The time and location are very specific; my partners phone GPS says we were out walking at the time although it is very close to the time we arrived back at the house so the time of the offence may be inaccurate or we simply mat .

I have already sent the following email in response:

Dear Sir/Madam
I write to you regarding a s172 notice recently received in connection with an alleged offence involving a vehicle for which I am the registered keeper:------
I would first like to point out that I believe that the notice I have received is defective. The alleged offence is stated as taking place on the 07/11/2020. As the notice was not issued until the 25/11/2020, it was not served within the required 14-day period. I suggest that this alone should bring an end to the matter.
None of the people who have lawful access to the car can recall any actions which fit the description of the alleged offence and due to the time that has passed, it is not immediately obvious who, if anyone, may have been driving at the time of the alleged offence. Analysis of bank statements and social media show that around the period of the alleged offence, the two people who have lawful access to the car were most likely to have been out walking in the local area with the vehicle parked up at home.
If you still wish to continue the matter despite the defective notice, I kindly request that I am provided evidence upon which the alleged offence is based so I may try to assist further.
Kind Regards”

This is causing us a great deal of stress and worry so any help would be appreciated. I’d like some advice on how much worse I’ve made it by sending my ill-informed email and what I should do next.

Many thanks in advance

Seaview

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post Fri, 27 Nov 2020 - 11:24
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Seaview
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 08:12
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2020
Date of the NIP: - 18 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A192, Seaton Delaval, what3words location: MISTAKEN.DAILY.INSTILLED
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Not aware until received s172. Telephone conversation with issueing office revealed that it was a cyclist who reported alleged incident with video footage. Issuing office also advised that what was sent out is not an NIP. Description of driver makes it clear it was not the registered keeper driving at the time.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 08:12:54 +0000
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Seaview
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 08:20
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Sorry, I filled out the nip wizard but I cackhandedly managed to start a new topic by accident. I have copied the output below...

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Reduced: 69% of original size [ 270 x 17 ] - Click to view full image

Date of the offence: - November 2020
Date of the NIP: - 18 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A192, Seaton Delaval, what3words location: MISTAKEN.DAILY.INSTILLED
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Not aware until received s172. Telephone conversation with issueing office revealed that it was a cyclist who reported alleged incident with video footage. Issuing office also advised that what was sent out is not an NIP. Description of driver makes it clear it was not the registered keeper driving at the time.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team

Sorry I filled out the NIP wizard but managed to start a new post by accident with it. Is there anyway to combine the two?
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The Rookie
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 10:23
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So they’ve admitted it’s not a NIP, name the driver and then there is nothing they can do unless there was an accident (within the meaning of the statute, which may not be an accident to you) occurred.


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NewJudge
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 11:12
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You must respond to the S172 notice. Failure to do so sees you commit an offence which carries a hefty fine and six points.

Unless the driver is to be charged with an offence for which no NIP is required, or if an accident had taken place, then it seems a prosecution for anything else is now impossible.
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 11:20
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This needs to be merged with the original thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=137153
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Seaview
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 12:08
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Thanks, I`ll get the form sent off naming the driver.

I have also just received the attached letter and a couple of photographs. I am fuming, it doesnt look anything like a close pass,, over half the car is on the diagonal stripes between lanes. No wonder no one can recall the event. I cant post the pictures on here because there is a copyright stamp across them.

Any further comments on the attached response please?
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Logician
post Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 12:32
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I wouldn't worry about the copyright statement.

As they have not sent out a NIP and are aware of it, perhaps they just want the driver named so that they can give some sort of warning.


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cp8759
post Sun, 29 Nov 2020 - 18:41
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QUOTE (Seaview @ Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 12:08) *
I cant post the pictures on here because there is a copyright stamp across them.

Yes you can, you are involved in actual or contemplated judicial proceedings, your involvement can reasonably necessitate you to seek legal advice, legal advice can be sought online (for example here), and section 45(1) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 says:

Copyright is not infringed by anything done for the purposes of parliamentary or judicial proceedings.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Seaview
post Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 09:36
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Thanks, I will scan and upload when I am next back at the home computer.

Quick question: When I respond to the s172 to identify the driver, is there any point in pointing out that the images are not time/date stamped and therefore not part of the means used to identify the driver? The car has been on that stretch of road regularly for 2 years and in theory this video could be from any time during that period.

I have also noticed that the original s172 gave me 28 days to respond. The latest letter has reduced that to 21 days despite only being issued 2 days later. Every time I ask a a question, do I get some sort of time penalty? rolleyes.gif

Regards

Seaview

This post has been edited by Seaview: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 09:41
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Jlc
post Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 09:45
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You have the 28 days from when the request was first made. (The 21 days is either a typo or they tried to include the time that has elapsed including postage delay)

At this stage I would simply name the driver without any qualification - assuming the named driver was at the given location on the date/time given.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 09:45


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 20:11
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 09:45) *
At this stage I would simply name the driver without any qualification - assuming the named driver was at the given location on the date/time given.

+1, anything other than an unequivocal nomination only causes a risk of problems further on.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Seaview
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:21
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Hello forum, so after nominating the driver and then subsequent admission by that driver that they were using the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence, today I received the attached letter.

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As you can see from the thread, all I have received is a letter requesting to identify the driver (which was outside the 14 day period anyway). The have also clarified in a previous letter that this was not a NIP.

Are they trying it on here? How do I proceed?

Many thanks

Seaview

This post has been edited by Seaview: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:24
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TMC Towcester
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:29
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Based on what you've posted thus far, surely Option 3 is the only option?

Have you uploaded the images you received?
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Jlc
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:37
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So your options are to accept a course or fixed penalty to avoid a prosecution - which will see the end of the matter but with the financial impact.

Alternatively, it appears they cannot secure a prosecution conviction but you may well have to attend court for this. (See post #20)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:49


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Seaview
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:42
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Here are the images, based on some rough measurements, I think I was 2.9 to 3.2m from the kerb during the 2nd image. I have had to shrink the image significantly to meet the topic upload limit.

Attached Image


This post has been edited by Seaview: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:43
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Atomic Tomato
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:21
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QUOTE (Seaview @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:42) *
I have had to shrink the image significantly to meet the topic upload limit.


Read This
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Seaview
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:38
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Thanks!
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:48
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:37) *
So your options are to accept a course or fixed penalty to avoid a prosecution - which will see the end of the matter but with the financial impact.

Alternatively, it appears they cannot secure a prosecution but you may well have to attend court for this. (See post #20)

Well they can secure a prosecution but they should not be able to get a conviction, but you will almost certainly have to attend court. Note that in order to take option 3 you don't have to do anything, you can just ignore them. There's always a chance the case might time out before they do anything about it.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Jlc
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:48) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:37) *
So your options are to accept a course or fixed penalty to avoid a prosecution - which will see the end of the matter but with the financial impact.

Alternatively, it appears they cannot secure a prosecution but you may well have to attend court for this. (See post #20)

Well they can secure a prosecution but they should not be able to get a conviction, but you will almost certainly have to attend court. Note that in order to take option 3 you don't have to do anything, you can just ignore them. There's always a chance the case might time out before they do anything about it.

Yes, thanks - my typo


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 14:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 13:48) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 7 Jan 2021 - 12:37) *
So your options are to accept a course or fixed penalty to avoid a prosecution - which will see the end of the matter but with the financial impact.

Alternatively, it appears they cannot secure a prosecution but you may well have to attend court for this. (See post #20)

Well they can secure a prosecution but they should not be able to get a conviction, but you will almost certainly have to attend court. Note that in order to take option 3 you don't have to do anything, you can just ignore them. There's always a chance the case might time out before they do anything about it.


Also, the cyclist will have to make a statement and if you do not accept it, as you will not wish to do as it will probably mean admitting the offence, the cyclist will have to attend court, the prosecution cannot rely on the photos alone, the cyclist must be there to verify them, and may well decline to attend court, in which event the case collapses.


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