PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Received NIP but not the owner/RK at the time
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:06
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



Hi,

I received a NIP dated on 13th of May 2018 this year for a speeding offence of 39 in a 30 zone, however I did not get the car until the 16th of May. It came with a covering letter stating that I am the recent RK/insurer of the car and they are chasing me for more information (by filling out relevant section of NIP).

I have filled out the form as best as I could including the date I acquired the vehicle however I could not remember the name of the person I bought it from, just the address and telephone number. Have also checked my V5 that came in the post but the previous owner section was missing. Despite sending this information away they have responded saying that I have incomplete the form and could potentially end up in front of mag's court.

Obviously this is a bit stressful especially as I only bought the car on the 16th which is 3 days after the offence. I have also seen the photo evidence online and I am very confident that the driver was not me. I also have text messages which proves that I am arriving on the 16th to pick the car up and I have kept these just in case.

What should the next course of action be? Should I write back that I have to the best of my knowledge tried to nominate previous owner and you should chase previous owner via DVLA?

Thanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:06
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:22
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,249
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



As you can show you weren’t the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence your obligations are much lower than if you were.

You need to ‘...give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver’.

You can only give what you have/remember. It would be quite hard for them to show you did not do this assuming you have responded accordingly. Perhaps they could actually do some investigation of their own with all of the information you have given them.

To find you guilty of the offence (s172/failing to furnish - not the speeding) they would have to show you had some information that you didn’t provide that could have assisted in identifying the driver...

Unless they think there’s some keeper shenanigans going on.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:27


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
localdriver
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:59
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,151
Joined: 3 Sep 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 22,300



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:06) *
I could not remember the name of the person I bought it from, just the address and telephone number. Have also checked my V5 that came in the post but the previous owner section was missing.


Previous registered keeper's details should be in part 2 on the front page.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:03
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



I will end up drafting a letter back which might explain the situation better...


NIP Reference: xxxxxxxxxx

Date: 10/7/2018

To whom it may concern,

I bought the vehicle in question on the 16th of May which is 3 days after the speeding offence has been committed and I have evidence to support this. I have to the best of my ability, in accordance with The Road Traffic Act 1988 section 172, provided information to the best of my knowledge about the previous owner of the vehicle. It is unreasonable to expect me to know who the driver was at the time of the offence as I was neither the owner or the registered keeper, and a summons to magistrate court would not be beneficial to both of us.

I would however suggest contacting the DVLA to find out additional information regarding the previous owner who would then be able to assist you further in identifying the driver who committed the speeding offence.

Yours Respectfully,

xxxxxxxxx
Registered Keeper.


What do you think?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:05
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,579
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



The police probably find it difficult to accept you do not know the name of the previous owner, so if you could find that out you might be of the hook. Did you pay for the car in cash? Any other method would give some clue about the owner. How did you find the car? An advert probably gave a name. Did you make a note somewhere when you arranged to go and see it, look for scraps of paper etc. Possibly the previous owner failed to register the car, so the police do not have his name and are suspicious of you.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:08
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



QUOTE (localdriver @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:59) *
QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:06) *
I could not remember the name of the person I bought it from, just the address and telephone number. Have also checked my V5 that came in the post but the previous owner section was missing.


Previous registered keeper's details should be in part 2 on the front page.


On section 2 it just has:

2. Data Protection

DVLA handles your personal data in accordance with road vehicle law and data protection laws. The law allows us to release your data to the police and other enforcement bodies.....

QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:05) *
The police probably find it difficult to accept you do not know the name of the previous owner, so if you could find that out you might be of the hook. Did you pay for the car in cash? Any other method would give some clue about the owner. How did you find the car? An advert probably gave a name. Did you make a note somewhere when you arranged to go and see it, look for scraps of paper etc. Possibly the previous owner failed to register the car, so the police do not have his name and are suspicious of you.


I paid for in cash and it was from a private sale. The advert only shows a username and not the full person's name however using Google reveals this username is linked to twitter which shows the full name of the person. Searching for this person's name in the town I collected the car reveals a company where the name is linked to the exact address I collected the car from.

I am 95% certain I have the name of the previous owner but I don't want to submit this and it turns out to be false information.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:12
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,249
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:03) *
What do you think?

See Logician’s post - need more info.

But you need to ensure you provide everything you have.

Seems a bit perverse signing off as registered keeper. I’d distance myself from that as you were not on the material date...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:14


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:17
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:12) *
QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:03) *
What do you think?

See Logician’s post - need more info.

But you need to ensure you provide everything you have.

Seems a bit perverse signing off as registered keeper. I’d distance myself from that as you were not on the material date...


I have tried my best but I can't be 100% on previous owners name. What about amending to the following:



Given my best efforts, I can nominate xxxxx xxxxxx who may reside at the address from which I collected the vehicle from, however I can not confidently say this was the driver at the time of the offence. I would however suggest contacting the DVLA to find out additional information regarding the previous owner who would then be able to assist you further in identifying the driver who committed the speeding offence.

Yours Respectfully,

xxxxxxxxx

This post has been edited by phey708: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:21
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:39
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,249
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



You can only provide the information you have (that may lead to the identification of the driver).

There's no possible way you could provide who was driving - don't worry about that.

Simply, give the information you have - be that a Google username etc. You are not expected to do the Police's job and start investigating...

I wouldn't make suggestions to them - that will only wind them up... wink.gif Some Forces can be rather obtuse about this process - threatening Magistrate's - geez...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:40


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:46
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:39) *
You can only provide the information you have (that may lead to the identification of the driver).

There's no possible way you could provide who was driving - don't worry about that.

Simply, give the information you have - be that a Google username etc. You are not expected to do the Police's job and start investigating...

I wouldn't make suggestions to them - that will only wind them up... wink.gif Some Forces can be rather obtuse about this process - threatening Magistrate's - geez...


Final edit:



Given my best efforts, I can nominate xxxxx xxxxxx who may reside at the address from which I collected the vehicle from as this can be found on a company directory.

Yours Respectfully
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:48
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,521
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:08) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:05) *
The police probably find it difficult to accept you do not know the name of the previous owner, so if you could find that out you might be of the hook. Did you pay for the car in cash? Any other method would give some clue about the owner. How did you find the car? An advert probably gave a name. Did you make a note somewhere when you arranged to go and see it, look for scraps of paper etc. Possibly the previous owner failed to register the car, so the police do not have his name and are suspicious of you.


I paid for in cash and it was from a private sale. The advert only shows a username and not the full person's name however using Google reveals this username is linked to twitter which shows the full name of the person. Searching for this person's name in the town I collected the car reveals a company where the name is linked to the exact address I collected the car from.

So send all of this information, with print outs showing the user name, the google search, twitter screenshots and so on. Providing you don't have reasons to suspect the information is false, you will have fulfilled your obligations and then some. You can't give information that you don't have.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:50
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,249
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:46) *
Given my best efforts, I can nominate...

You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phey708
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:02
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,661



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:46) *
Given my best efforts, I can nominate...

You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...


Final edit before I send tomorrow....



Please find enclosed evidence which should help you in assisting with finding the previous owner and potentially the driver of the speeding offence.

Yours Respectfully,

xxxxxxxxx
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:11
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,521
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:46) *
Given my best efforts, I can nominate...

You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...


Final edit before I send tomorrow....



Please find enclosed evidence which should help you in assisting with finding the previous owner and potentially the driver of the speeding offence.

Yours Respectfully,

xxxxxxxxx

Personally I would include a short narrative explaining the circumstances, and what the evidence relates to (i.e. this is the seller's twitter username, this is a google search linking him to this address which is the address where I bought the car...)


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churchmouse
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 01:07
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,992
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
From: Landan
Member No.: 20,731



QUOTE (phey708 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:06) *
I have filled out the form as best as I could including the date I acquired the vehicle however I could not remember the name of the person I bought it from, just the address and telephone number.

But you did include that information, the address and telephone number, right? I hope you didn't decide that because you couldn't give a name, you didn't still need to give them the information that you did have...

You only have 28 days to respond to the s.172, so sending dribs and drabs of information after that time arguably won't help--if the police are minded to prosecute you. As mentioned above, you are not required to do any "investigation"; I suspect the police just didn't believe your claim that you didn't know the seller's name, so they decided to have another go. However, in order to actually convict you of the offence, they'd need to prove somehow that you did know the seller's name (or some other relevant bit of information), which would be challenging for them unless there are links between the two of you that could be found.

--Churchmouse
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nigelbb
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 06:53
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,269
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,602



Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:24
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,521
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:53) *
Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.

Well maybe s172 should be altered to take what you say into account, but we can only advise the OP on the basis of the law as it stands.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:13
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39,903
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:53) *
Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.

Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nigelbb
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:55
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,269
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,602



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:13) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:53) *
Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.

Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.

If the DVLA provided details of the RK at the time of the offence isn't that the person who should be pursued & not someone who became the RK a few days later? It is only the DVLA who definitively know who the RK is/was at any particular time.

It's also odd that the OP's copy of the V5C does not have the name of the previous RK. The only way this should normally happen is if the vehicle were purchased new.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:57


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:17
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39,903
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:55) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:13) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:53) *
Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.

Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.

If the DVLA provided details of the RK at the time of the offence isn't that the person who should be pursued & not someone who became the RK a few days later? It is only the DVLA who definitively know who the RK is/was at any particular time.

It's also odd that the OP's copy of the V5C does not have the name of the previous RK. The only way this should normally happen is if the vehicle were purchased new.

If the previous RK has said they disposed of the car some time before the alleged offence date (or it was without an RK) how or why would the Police pursue them?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:18


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 12th November 2018 - 23:22
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.