PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Questions regarding NIP, insurance, and points, help HUGELY appreciated., Threads merged
neckstream1
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 11:09
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 9 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,794



Hi,

Firstly, i'd like to say thanks for reading this post, and another big thanks to anyone who volunteers some help. It's great to see the community in action here for those times where there's been a real error in the process of serving justice, and helping the defenceless people fight back.

So to tell you a bit about my situation: I currently have 6 points on my license for speeding, and my car has recently been caught by a speed van doing 35 and 39 in a 30 zone twice in the same week. (35mph and 39mph respectively) I'm legitimately surprised, because after the 6 points last year, i've enabled an audible speed limit notification on my car and have made a concerted effort to go slow.

This is where the situation gets a bit tricky: my sister often shares my commute to work with me. She sometimes drives the car, and i sometimes drive the car. We were fairly sure that she was the one driving for one of the two NIP's issued; she has a clean license. The trouble is, we were driving under the assumption that her fully comp insurance had driving other's cars enabled. It now seems that her renewal (which took place just before these speed traps) stripped her DOC from her insurance.

She had my explicit permission to use my car, and my car has fully comp+DOC, but now we are in this situation and i have a few questions:



1) If we submit the NIP back with her license details, is there a way in which any person or system automatically checks her details against her insurance. Is this likely? could she get in trouble with her insurer, and if so, would it be a more serious offence than the speeding? I'm not so much looking for the worst-case scenario, just the most likely.

2) We're having a genuinely hard time working out who was driving for the second ticket: our gut instinct both says it was my sister, and in the name of full disclosure i truly hope that it was her, since the extra three points as mentioned would bring me up to twelve but her to only three. If we fill in the NIP with her details, do they automatically cross reference the gender with the photo/video evidence? Instead of worst case scenario again, is there any indication of how likely this is? I don't have access to it save for after a summons (i think) and if it were to be me unexpectedly driving on that day, it would be a genuine mistake on our part.

3) The alternative is for me to register for the full 6 points, which would take me up to 12 points and result in a 6 month ban, i assume. I don't have the money for a lawyer, and i doubt i would be able to argue for serious/mitigating circumstances. If i were to ignore the NIP, and wait for a summons, is there any sense to trying to have the tickets quashed on technical grounds? The 35mph one seems pretty dubious to me, as i was nearly certain that would have been me driving purposefully slow. My fear is that should i plead not guilty to one or both tickets, the judge would rule it a 'wasteful' challenge (i don't know the terminology, sorry) and issue 6 points instead of the original 3, rendering the whole excercise pointless and costly. Any hints on whether it is worth starting this process? I can easily append all the details of the tickets that i have.


Any advice on this issue would mean a great deal to me and my sister. Needless to say, a 6 month ban would be truly ruinous for my life. I understand that speeding is a serious offense, and yet the location of this trap on this country road with confusing signeage, (A32 Warnford like a couple of previous posters, also the site of my year-old 6 points) i agree with others that it feels less like justice and more like a cynical cash grab; the kind that the posters on this forum are devoted to fighting back against.

If you've read this far, i thank you wholeheartedly.

Best,

Confused Driver


EDIT: Thanks for the swift replies, one and all. I have a couple of follow up questions if you all wouldn't mind delving back in to my case:

Okay, i'm thinking that if my sister was not insured to drive, i can't risk putting her down as the driver if there is ANY ambiguity. I'll ask for the pictures to help identify the driver, and see where to go from there.

Now that i'm preparing for a worst case scenario, a summons to court for 12 points:

How long would this take to go to court? Will i have time to prepare for a 6 month ban?

Is 6 months the bare minimum? My offences are all for speeding, no more than 39mph, all on the same road, three within the same week. I have evidence that after the first ticket i upgraded my car to help me to not speed (yes, i know it didn't work, please don't judge!) and one of the subsequent tickets is for 35mph, which i believe is just on the edge of what they normally prosecute for? I've heard that in some cases, if i plead guilty and let them know how sorry i am, they may reduce the length of the ban... is this just a myth?

Finally, is it worth hiring a lawyer to fight the 35mph ticket on technical grounds? i have no idea of the ballpark costs but i would like to know some. Also, if somebody can recommend a reasonably priced phoneline to get some initial advice, i'd be grateful.

Thanks again, i appreciate it massively.




This post has been edited by neckstream1: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 13:57
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 29)
Advertisement
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 11:09
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
peterguk
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:56
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,467
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



OP, you haven't answered my previous questions:

You make no mention of what you have done to work out who was driving.

You have the dates, times locations and directions. Your problem is a court will find it hard to believe two grown adults couldn't work out who was drvinig for a journey or two a few days earlier.

Phone records? Diaries? Credit debit cards? Appointments and activities? Other family members?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:56


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neckstream1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:10
Post #22


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 9 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,794



Apologies peterg, i've got new information coming in all the time and i'm updating as i go. I can now say with a good degree of certainty that i was driving on both occasions, just waiting for the pictures to confirm that: on the phone they said that one instance was definitely a male, the other was hard to tell and they would send the pictures on. To be honest, i was just looking for an anecdotal view on how often the police do look deep into the insurance situation of a nominated driver. Yes, it is irrelevant now, but i'd still like to know!

Thanks for your patience and answers smile.gif

This post has been edited by neckstream1: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NewJudge
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:31
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,430
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



QUOTE (neckstream1 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:40) *
Now to the crux of my question: I read in a post here recently that the police have some degree of discretion over the ticketing procedure, and previously people have written to them with a plea. I can't find the post now, though, which is frustrating, but it said there is some precedent for the notion that sometimes offences happen within a short window, before the driver has time to receive an NIP and correct his driving style. I was clocked at 35 in a 30 (which i truly believe was actually 33mph because of the afformentioned telematics in my car) which i think is just on the boundary of an acceptable threshold.


It's worth a stamp, but that's probably about all. Your argument that you had no time to correct your driving style is unlikely to hold much water. Having been detected three times in three weeks, you must have had the NIP from the first offence before you committed the third. So whilst your argument may have flown for two offences (albeit still likely to be unsuccessful) it would be readily dismissed for a third.This is particularly so when you were detected in the same place each time.

If you try to argue that the "telematics" in your car assisted the commission of your offences you may find that the police (or a court) might take the view that the only assistance you need to gauge your speed is a speedometer. By law these must never under record (i.e. suggest you are travelling slower than you actually are) and most over-record. It's unfortunate that you find it "confusing" when speed limits change but that approach is similarly scarcely likely to cut the mustard. Part of being a competent driver is recognising what speed limit prevails wherever you happen to be.

I think your plea will fall on deaf ears and twelve points will see you facing a totting-up ban unless you can successfully argue "exceptional hardship".

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neckstream1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:53
Post #24


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 9 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,794



Thanks, NewJudge. Demoralising to read, but understandable.

So, all things considered, is there anything at all i can do to avoid getting 9 points? Before you say it, yes, i'll drive better. If i have to take it on the chin, i will.

Is it worth asking the constabulary for all of the speed gun documentation etc, as detailed in ebooks like 'Uk Driving secrets' etc?

Is it worth pleading not guilty to the 35 mph offence? I genuinely believe i was not doing 35, but i'll find it hard to substantiate that on my own - if i spend a thousand pounds or more on a lawyer, am i likely to get an extra 3 points added to my judgement if found guilty, taking me up to 12?

Thanks again.

This post has been edited by neckstream1: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:54
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:57
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,467
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (neckstream1 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:53) *
Is it worth asking the constabulary for all of the speed gun documentation etc, as detailed in ebooks like 'Uk Driving secrets' etc?

Is it worth pleading not guilty to the 35 mph offence?

No point in fishing for documentation. You probably wouldn't get it anyway.

IMHO, no point in pleading NG unless you can show the court you were not exceeding the limit. It'll just prove to be a more expensive day out than it would have been.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:57


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:21
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,361
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (neckstream1 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:53) *
Is it worth pleading not guilty to the 35 mph offence? I genuinely believe i was not doing 35, but i'll find it hard to substantiate that on my own - if i spend a thousand pounds or more on a lawyer, am i likely to get an extra 3 points added to my judgement if found guilty, taking me up to 12?

No, for that excess the guidance is 3 points - they won't deviate from that even if you plead not guilty.

What will hurt though is the prosecution costs. The speed reading will be presumed correct from an approved device. Your averaged GPS speed isn't that accurate nor instantaneous - it won't hold any weight nor your opinion is was borderline and you didn't think you did it.

QUOTE (neckstream1 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:53) *
Is it worth asking the constabulary for all of the speed gun documentation etc, as detailed in ebooks like 'Uk Driving secrets' etc?

Things have moved on a lot and the stuff in those books doesn't reliably work. Some give the impression that simply asking for a calibration certificate will see them run for the hills and drop the matter, not any more I'm afraid.

Of course, there's always a story of someone 'getting off', usually on a technicality, but it's not a sound strategy.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 14:55
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,165
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



You need to separate out the two things.

You can write a letter to the police asking for them to be considered as fewer offences. Obviously they are only going to do this if one person was driving in all three offences.

You just need to be apologetic, say how it was out of character and that you understand how dangerous speeding can be. You would definitely have changed your driving if you had found out about the first offence before the other two. Please please please could they consider combining the offences.

It's a long shot as they happened over weeks rather than days but the police have the discretion, don't ask, don't get. Obviously do not mention you doubt the speed at this stage as it will just get their backs up.#

As for disputing the offence, it is probably a non-starter because the difference is tiny, and at any rate the telematics box will not measure speed over the period the police do (0.3 seconds). This sort of defence is difficult to pull off even when there is a big discrepancy, and the telematics box actually puts you under the limit.

35mph is the point enforcement starts, not stops.

The issue you have is that as soon as you dispute the speed the police camera units have a habit of just referring it to magistrates court. Of course if you are going to be on 12+ points this may be immaterial as you won't be able to accept a fixed penalty anyway. But, disputing it would have a very, very, very low chance of the police accepting it. The only advantage I can think of is that your case may come out of the "automatic" system and have a slightly higher chance of falling down the back of the filing cabinet.

But, as Peter has said, you need to focus on naming the drivers at the moment, especially if police have photos that potentially identify the driver.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neckstream1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:28
Post #28


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 9 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,794



Thanks to all. I'm extremely grateful, even though the advice is hard to stomach.

I'll be receiving the pictures tomorrow i think, but after a couple of days of deduction i'm almost certain it was me driving. The people who've read this thread might perceive me as an idiotic driver, but i hope that some of you can identify with the feeling that some of these tickets are more about the money than about metering out justice: i really felt like i was doing a safe speed on an empty and non-populous country road. Now, within a few weeks, i'm looking down the barrel of a disqualification and all of the pain that brings.

Anyway, no point in self pity. If anyone can think of anything that might help me, that would be excellent.

Thanks to everybody who took the time to read this, and especially to those who took the time to reply. I really mean that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 06:38
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,876
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Given the police dont get any revenue from fines, no, not really the money.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:27
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,411
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (neckstream1 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 19:28) *
I'll be receiving the pictures tomorrow i think, but after a couple of days of deduction i'm almost certain it was me driving. The people who've read this thread might perceive me as an idiotic driver, but i hope that some of you can identify with the feeling that some of these tickets are more about the money than about metering out justice: i really felt like i was doing a safe speed on an empty and non-populous country road. Now, within a few weeks, i'm looking down the barrel of a disqualification and all of the pain that brings.

If you think the speed limit on the road is too low, you need to lobby the relevant highways authority to increase the speed limit, but that has no relevance to your case.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 20th July 2018 - 12:49
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.