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Lots of questions on a summons for speeding and processes, Speeding in Surrey LTI 20:20 Ultralyte 1000
Law Wannabe
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 15:24
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Hi guys

I am looking for the answers to some questions about the processes used in issuing a court summons for speeding. This isn't mine it is my sons but even though it was accepted he was speeding I question some of the content. Now we realise he could lose his license I had noticed some things that make me feel uneasy. Offence is A30 London Road Staines/Ashford August 2017 exceeding 60 in a 30. Can anyone answer some of the points or advise on whether there is a defense.

Statement by police officer was made on 26th January 2018 – 5 months after the offence (Signed on 30th January 2018)
Mg4d postal requisition dated 30th January 2018 (Summons) this is within the 6 months but when was it actually logged in court as the Summons was posted to old address on 8th May 2018 I would like
to know when the summons was actually requested as I believe that is the 6 month deadline. Also the case is end of July and it seems a very long time if it went into court in January.
Officer statement does not contain information about their position on A30 or the extent of timings
Only 2 photographs of evidence sent and one contains no information
There is no signage restricting 30mph on that stretch of the A30 - PO says distance of lampposts signifies speed - less than 200 yards. Now I was taught metric so therefore my son was too and his test
would have contained metric answers. I have asked a driving examiner and they discussed in the office and none of them use lampposts to determine speed when they teach or examine.
The driver was on the opposite carriageway and was possibly entering a 40mph where there are signs, however the lampposts are still the same distance as the 30mph and 50mph zones. My argument is
when the speed is changed in a road do they automatically move the lampposts to make sure drivers are aware smile.gif Tongue in cheek I know they don't
The A30 is variable speed in 3 parts but the lampposts are the same distance
The road is a dual carriageway and runs for 2.5 miles as a dual carriageway both sides but PO has not given his position
The police set up the laser to monitor traffic travelling towards staines the driver was travelling on opposite carriageway and concerned at the accuracy if the laser is swiftly moved 180 degrees to catch
their car
The laser was calibrated at 35 meters before operation set up at 11.42 attended staines road and set up monitoring the driver was photographed at 12:40:25 and the PO says at the conclusion of the
checks at 12:42 the DVD was unloaded and sealed, however the checks are done in addlestone when he returns from end of duty!! so what speed was he doing to pack up equipment and get to
addlestone in less than 2 minutes? It all looks total Bull to me and the driver may lose his license and his job.

Anyone with any help and advice I am most grateful

Thank you
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post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 15:24
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:04
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The 6 months is to commence proceedings, from the info we have it appears this has been satisfied.

It's a matter of fact whether the point of capture was a restricted road. (s82 RTRA) The legislation states yards, claiming being taught metric isn't going to fly. (A yard isn't too different to a metre - it's around 185 metres)

I'm shocked the examiner is seemingly unaware of the significance of a system of street lighting - indeed, it's irrelevant what they think... However, if coming from a higher limit there would be a terminal sign at the start. Of course, if beginning within the limit and there is a system of street lighting and there's no signs to the contrary then 30mph must be presumed. If there was some signage 'missing' then they may be an angle depending on the point of capture.

2 photo's are sufficient - the NIP/s172 would have given a locus?

QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:24) *
...checks at 12:42 the DVD was unloaded and sealed, however the checks are done in addlestone when he returns from end of duty!! so what speed was he doing to pack up equipment and get to addlestone in less than 2 minutes? It all looks total Bull to me and the driver may lose his license and his job.

I think you may struggle to find a defence in that. Without seeing the statement I presume the 12:42 is when the DVD was unloaded and a chain of custody started.

You need to identify a specific defence to be honest - if there is one. It's scatter-gun at the moment - either he wasn't doing the speed alleged (unlikely), the signage/traffic order were incorrect or there is some administrative issue.

You don't give the exact speed (what was it?) but 6 points seems odds-on, more so if he's under New Drivers Act. A longish ban (up to 2 months) would be the alternative.

You could go down the route of more evidence if it was deemed relevant, e.g. the video to see if the camera was 'swung around' but I'm sure the operator could visually tell a car going twice the limit too. Although, they can capture approaching and receding traffic without a 180 depending on the line of sight.

QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:24) *
My argument is when the speed is changed in a road do they automatically move the lampposts to make sure drivers are aware smile.gif

If the lamp posts where in excess of the necessary spacing then repeaters would be required.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:09


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jezt
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:13
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QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:24) *
...I have asked a driving examiner and they discussed in the office and none of them use lampposts to determine speed when they teach or examine...


Strange. I was taught, and I'm sure the Highway Code says, that if there is regular street lighting then the speed limit is 30 unless otherwise indicated, regardless of how many lanes there are etc. etc.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:33
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Your post is fairly scattergun at the moment.

Either you think there is an issue with the speed measurement - hopefully your son can confirm if it is or isn't likely to be correct.
Or you think that the speed limit is incorrectly signed - if so why?

The rights and wrongs of using street lighting to denote speed limits has been done to death but the Highway Code, which is worth a check if unsure, provides advice

QUOTE
A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.


And that is effectively the basis of everything, if it has street lighting and isn't a motorway then assume 30mph. If your son is unsure how far 200 yards it is sufficient to know it is abnormally large spacing and to assume 30mph anyway.

Crucially, is your son planning on pleading guilty or not? If guilty then as nothing above is mitigation then the argument is academic anyway.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:36
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I don’t use lampposts to determine speed, but I do note them in terms of the limit though.

Despite the above, the statute does in fact say 183m (200 yards, or just over 0.1 miles on the cars odometer, which is another way to easily check), to be honest they are usually installed at about half that distance so the limit is unlikely to be in doubt on distance (noting the Fenton Martin case before anyone chimes in with that, and the Ted Heath one in about 1971 for that matter).

Do you have a Google street View link to the location where he was caught? To be honest it sounds like he was bang to rights.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 16:37


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Law Wannabe
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:28
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Thanks people

I will answer all on this post.
He is pleading guilty and is not under the 2 year law - he has been driving 9 years and until last February 2017 had no cautions he got 3 points and £100 fine and then in
august 2017 I am not sure if the fact that he was under extreme stress can be used but I doubt it. He lost his grandad, his father in law in April and then his dad left in June
followed by him having to find somewhere to live and starting a new job. He admitted he was probably speeding but it is the difference between being in a 30 or a 40.
He was doing 66 mph
I will try and upload the statement in respect of the timing I do not believe it was lodged in court within the 6 months. Guildford Magistrates do not take 4 months to send a summons.

I was also taught lampposts but I have driving instructors and DVSA examiners stating it is not taught nowadays and hasn't been for many years. The reason is where speed limits are
constantly changed you cannot move all the lampposts to ensure that is a 40 is decreased to a 30 they relay all the lampposts just in case. There are many roads that are 30 without lampposts and many 60 with lampposts
it is not a reason to rely on those to dictate speed.
The photograph is taken "funny enough" at 183.8 meters about a lamppost worth.

I will attempt to upload the statement

Thanks

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peterguk
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:44
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QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:28) *
it is not a reason to rely on those to dictate speed.


In terms of a 30mph limit, the law disagrees with your opinion.


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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:44
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Regardless of what is taught (it's criminal they don't) the law applies. The signage (or indeed lack of) is critical.

What was the locus on the NIP/s172?

66 is likely to be a lengthy ban. If it was 40 limit then 6 points might be possible...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:45


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Law Wannabe
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:49
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here is statement written in January 2018
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:08
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If your son is pleading guilty then it makes matters very simple. The best strategy in magistrates court is to fall on your sword, and be apologetic.

Arguing whether learners are correctly taught limits will likely only serve to aggravate them especially as having had a licence for nine years he has had plenty of time, and apparently plenty of success, getting it right. He needs to focus on the fact this is out of character and he normally observes speed limits, rather than he routinely drives around not really understanding what the speed limit may be.

As JLC says the result will likely to be a ban, but if that would be problematic it is possible to try and steer them towards six points.

For future reference, almost all street lighting is less than 200 yards apart. It is not necessary to measure it because 200 yards is essentially the law saying "all street lit roads, unless the lighting is so patchy that the road may not appear to have street lights".

The only exceptions tend to be rural villages where street lights are not regularly spaced. Often they have 30 repeaters anyway for clarity.

You will find any street lit road except motorways that is not 30 should have speed limit repeater signs - national speed limit ones if it is a 60mph single carriageway. There is no requirement to vary the spacing of street lights to change limits and I would imagine it almost never happens.

This is not to prove a point, other than magistrates will expect a licenced driver to know the rules whether or not they agree they are intuitive. The place to argue the rules should be different is not court, and it will not act as any mitigation.



This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:20
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:18
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Nothing obviously amiss on that statement - nothing about getting to Addlestone in 2 mins...

Here are the 30mph terminal signs or here from the other direction. (One direction is 40>30 and the other NSL>30)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:22


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:49
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You seem to be getting a bit hung up on the lamp posts.

The situation is quite clear. Other than motorways, a road with a system of regular lighting is subject to a 30mph limit unless signs are in place to the contrary. Where a lit road has a limit greater than 30mph regular “repeaters” must be provided. If they are not then the driver should assume a 30mph limit prevails. There is no need for any different spacing. Lights at 200 yards or less spacing denote a default 30mph limit. There is no connection between street lights and any other limit. I know of plenty of roads with lighting where a limit other than 30mph prevails but I’m not sure I know of many (if any) without lighting where 30mph prevails (other than temporary limits for road works, etc.).

If your son does plead guilty to doing 66 in a 30mph limit he can almost certainly look forward to a disqualification. The only question really is for how long? Magistrates’ sentencing guidelines for speeds over 51mph suggest either a ban of 7 to 56 days or six points. But they also say this:

Where an offender is driving grossly in excess of the speed limit the court should consider a disqualification in excess of 56 days.

The court may well consider that 66 is “grossly in excess of the speed limit” and unless he can convince them there is considerable mitigation (which from what you say seems unlikely) or if they consider putting him on nine points may concentrate his mind until February 2020, I think he may be looking at around three months off the road.
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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:27
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Based on the details in the statement it seems the camera van was located somewhere around here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.439086,-0...33;8i6656?hl=en

30 MPH terminal signs are clearly displayed.

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666
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:32
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The idea that learners are no longer taught about street lighting and the 30 limit seems fanciful. It is still in the HC, and therefore part of the syllabus.

What may be true is that few instructors mention the 200 yard stipulation, as there can be few if any locations where it would matter. The simple rule is "street lighting means 30 unless signs indicate otherwise".
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Law Wannabe
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:46
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:18) *
Nothing obviously amiss on that statement - nothing about getting to Addlestone in 2 mins...

Here are the 30mph terminal signs or here from the other direction. (One direction is 40>30 and the other NSL>30)


He was entering her https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4368665,-...3312!8i6656
and my guess is he was about here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4386806,-...3312!8i6656

But as the police do not give their actual location they could have been at the start of the 30 on opposite carriageway which is what they were monitoring https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4391935,-...3312!8i6656

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 23:27) *
Based on the details in the statement it seems the camera van was located somewhere around here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.439086,-0...33;8i6656?hl=en

30 MPH terminal signs are clearly displayed.

He was on the opposite carriageway so therefore he was in a 40 which is still speeding but less likely to lose license



Based on the details in the statement it seems the camera van was located somewhere around here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.439086,-0...33;8i6656?hl=en

30 MPH terminal signs are clearly displayed.


This is how I saw it which means he was in a 40 as he was going the opposite way to the monitoring!!

This post has been edited by Law Wannabe: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:47
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peterguk
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:47
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QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:44) *
He was entering her https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4368665,-...3312!8i6656
and my guess is he was about here

So a system of streetlights indicating a 30mph limit, and a few yards down the road, a 30mph sign to confirm:

Linky

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:47


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Law Wannabe
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:51
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Just to clarify he was driving towards the PO on the opposite side to the side the police were monitoring so he was in a 40mph not a 30mph
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4391935,-...3312!8i6656

If the police were in the lay-by monitoring traffic driving into the 30mph zone which is clearly signposted my son was 183 meters behind them on the opposite side clearly in a 40mph

Does anyone agree with that??
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Jlc
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:26
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QUOTE (Law Wannabe @ Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:51) *
Does anyone agree with that??

As part of the setup procedure the officer will check the limit being enforced and the potential points of capture. One strategy is to ping the speed limit signs to confirm the distance - and measuring at the point of the signs as many think there's a period of grace to slow after the signs. (Of course we all know it's before - assuming the signs correlate with the traffic order)

It's hard to confirm exactly with the info but perhaps the officer has 'misunderstood'. As noted, it could potentially make a significant difference to the sentence, between a lengthy ban and 6 points.

My measurement from where I think the unit was to the 30mph signs is about 370m.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:45


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Law Wannabe
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 10:52
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I have uploaded the photograph showing a - moving away from the direction of the 30mph
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IanJohnsonWS14
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 10:55
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[quote name='NewJudge' date='Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:49' post='1396453']
.............. I’m not sure I know of many (if any) without lighting where 30mph prevails (other than temporary limits for road works, etc.)............

An example

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4340514,-...3312!8i6656


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