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Totting up ban – exceptional hardship
bevc
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 14:13
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Hi. I would really appreciate some advice and guidance on the likelihood of the magistrate’s court accepting my exceptional hardship plea.

I have 9 points on my licence and 3 pending. They are for:

02/04/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (motorway)
30/06/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
23/07/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
01/04/2018 40 something in a 40mph limit (motorway)

I sent back my NIP and have had a form to request a date for my court hearing. I need to decide whether to travel down to Bristol with associated costs (I live in North Wales), hire a solicitor to try and claim exceptional hardship and keep my licence. Or for the case to be heard in my absence.

Potential basis for exceptional hardship:

● My son is 18, currently living at home on a year out before university. He may need taking to open days / interviews. I am a single parent and cost of trains / overnight accommodation if taking the train will be prohibitive.
● My parents have health problems –at the moment they are doing a tag team of who is well enough to care/transport but I can easily foresee a time in the next 6/9 months where they both need support.

Also does anyone know what the likely fine would be in this situation? If I lose my license will that impact on the size of fine I am given?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Bev.
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post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 14:13
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The Rookie
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 14:22
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Details of individual offences aren't relevant when it comes to an EH plea.

You don't need a solicitor to present one, being nervous when doing so isn't a hindrance, magistrates are (mostly) normal human beings, they will only be interested in hearing your case and making a decision.

Data suggests that circa 25% of totters make a successful EH plea (number who try and fail not known), so the bar is not set spectacularly high, after all living with 12 points and knowing any more cases and you will be on the bus tends to focus people minds better, especially as you'll have nearly 2 years of it (although maybe a question to consider is, given that history, whether you'll manage that and a clean licence in 6 months may be better?).

As all those would have qualified for a speed awareness course (in fact 2 different types) I presume you'd already done one/some?

Fine for 40 something in a 40 is band C, circa 50% of weekly take home (just Tax and NI deductions) plus £85 costs and £30 surcharge.


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Jlc
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 14:42
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You have to major on the impact on others - you have 2 angles for this but the latter potentially being more persuasive. Whilst others have sworn by having representation it's not strictly necessary but remember you cannot expect to drive home as the ban is immediate.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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bevc
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:20
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Thanks for your replies.

I did a speed awareness course following an offence in Sept 2015. I have never been offered another.

Will all the point be cleared then if I do a 6 month ban? I thought they would remain. The risk of getting another 3 points is part of my pros/cons list.

Does anyone know if there’s an impact on my insurance to losing my licence. I realise the points will increase my insurance premiums but will losing my licence cause them to be higher again?


QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:42) *
You have to major on the impact on others - you have 2 angles for this but the latter potentially being more persuasive. Whilst others have sworn by having representation it's not strictly necessary but remember you cannot expect to drive home as the ban is immediate.


Yes, had planned to get the train down if I go.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:29
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QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
I need to decide whether to travel down to Bristol with associated costs (I live in North Wales), hire a solicitor to try and claim exceptional hardship and keep my licence. Or for the case to be heard in my absence.


You cannot make an Exceptional Hardshsip plea unless you attend court. You will be required to give evidence (of your potential hardship) under oath or affirmation.

QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
If I lose my license will that impact on the size of fine I am given?
Bev.

It will not impact it at all. It will be as explained (Band 'A' actually, but still 50% of a week's income, reduced by a third if you plead guilty). There is no "trade off" between the size of the fine and a totting up ban.

To be honest, your EH plea is not particularly strong. You don't say when your son will start making his applications for University but the Bench may well feel that at 18 he is old enough to get himself about (especially as he is thinking of spending three years living by himself). The other angle with your parents is a "maybe". There is no guarantee they will be both become so infirm that they will be unable to get themselves about in the next six months or so. It's a line that many people could run and not one, I would suggest, on which the court is going to attach too much weight. Having said that, stranger things have happened.

Yes, your points will revert to zero if you are banned under the totting up rules. If your Exceptional Hardship plea is successful they will remain and you cannot make another EH argument using the same reasons for three years.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:33
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bevc
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:44
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 16:29) *
QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
I need to decide whether to travel down to Bristol with associated costs (I live in North Wales), hire a solicitor to try and claim exceptional hardship and keep my licence. Or for the case to be heard in my absence.


You cannot make an Exceptional Hardshsip plea unless you attend court. You will be required to give evidence (of your potential hardship) under oath or affirmation.


QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
If I lose my license will that impact on the size of fine I am given?
Bev.

It will not impact it at all. It will be as explained (Band 'A' actually, but still 50% of a week's income, reduced by a third if you plead guilty). There is no "trade off" between the size of the fine and a totting up ban.

To be honest, your EH plea is not particularly strong. You don't say when your son will start making his applications for University but the Bench may well feel that at 18 he is old enough to get himself about (especially as he is thinking of spending three years living by himself). The other angle with your parents is a "maybe". There is no guarantee they will be both become so infirm that they will be unable to get themselves about in the next six months or so. It's a line that many people could run and not one, I would suggest, on which the court is going to attach too much weight. Having said that, stranger things have happened.

Yes, your points will revert to zero if you are banned under the totting up rules. If your Exceptional Hardship plea is successful they will remain and you cannot make another EH argument using the same reasons for three years.


Yes, the decision is whether to spend a substantial amount of money travelling to try and make what I agree is a weak EH plea or accept that I will lose my licence for 6 months. I didn't realise the ban would mean my points are cleared. This is quite a significant tick on the side of just suck it up (not that I intend on razzing around when I do get my licence back!)

Thanks for your comments.
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peterguk
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:45
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QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 16:20) *
Does anyone know if there’s an impact on my insurance to losing my licence. I realise the points will increase my insurance premiums but will losing my licence cause them to be higher again?

If you get a totting ban the offence code on your DL will be a TT99 and stays on your DL for 4 years. It will have an effect on your insurance premiums - to what degree will depend on your own personal circumstances and insurance company. Try some dummy quotes.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:59
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Dummy quotes are NOT in your name or at your address, but use the same postcode and a similar car to gauge the impact.


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Logician
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 19:24
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New Judge has said just what I was going to say, I think your case for EH is rather weak. Getting your son through his tests might be useful just now.


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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 19:41
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Don't forget if you attend and are banned, it comes into force immediately. So you wouldn't be able to drive back.
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andy_foster
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 21:27
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QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
I have 9 points on my licence and 3 pending. They are for:

02/04/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (motorway)
30/06/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
23/07/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
01/04/2018 40 something in a 40mph limit (motorway)

I sent back my NIP and have had a form to request a date for my court hearing.


This makes little sense (to me at least). What exactly have you received?

QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 16:20) *
I did a speed awareness course following an offence in Sept 2015. I have never been offered another.


What type of offence was the course for?


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The Rookie
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 06:00
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To clarify Andy’s second question, there are three different speeding awareness courses, for 20mph limits, for variable speed limit motorways and for all other offences, attending one doesn’t stop you attending a different course so I’m surprised you weren’t offered one for one of the Mway offences unless they were fixed limits?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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bevc
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 08:33
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I attended a speed awareness course in 2015 for doing about 65/66 in a 60 limit (it was two lanes so I mistakenly thought I could do up to 70 – duh!).

Following that the first 6 points were from the same stretch of A road doing 55/56 in a 50mph limit area.

Third set of 3 points was doing 55/56 on the M60 where there are roadworks (though I rarely see any actual work) and a temporary 50mph limit (Sunday evening, no workers, clear road but obviously still cameras!).

Final set of 3 points was on the M40 in Bristol. A short stretch of road with a 40mph limit. I think there are average speed cameras.

I think these would all count as fixed limits. I assume by variable limits you mean the ones that flash up on smart motorways if there’s traffic etc?
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Jlc
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 08:39
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Not that it matters now but enforcement in a 50 limit doesn't begin under 57mph, and likewise 68mph in a 60 limit.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 08:39
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That's correct, it sounds like none of those where the variable limits you see on smart motorways so you wouldn't be eligible for that different course.

Ordinarily you would be asked to attend a hearing where you would be banned, there is a new process available where they ban you and notify you of the date from which its effective but it appears not all areas are doing that yet (obviously the 'system' is trying to avoid people driving while disqualified due to not knowing about the disqual). If it goes to a regular court you can write and inform them you will not drive on the day of the hearing until you are aware of the verdict thus avoiding the travel to that hearing - you can also send legal representation but that's clearly not cheap either.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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bevc
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 09:03
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 09:39) *
Not that it matters now but enforcement in a 50 limit doesn't begin under 57mph, and likewise 68mph in a 60 limit.


Ok. I was probably doing a bit more then but definitely not more than 10 over the limit... though as you say not that it matters dry.gif

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 22:27) *
QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
I have 9 points on my licence and 3 pending. They are for:

02/04/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (motorway)
30/06/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
23/07/2017 50 something in a 50mph limit (A road)
01/04/2018 40 something in a 40mph limit (motorway)

I sent back my NIP and have had a form to request a date for my court hearing.


This makes little sense (to me at least). What exactly have you received?

I have had a letter from the court. I need to send back the form or go online to state whether I will be:

1 - Pleading not guilty
2 - Pleading guilty and attending court.
3 - Pleading guilty and not attending court.

I assume with options 1 and 2 they will then send me a summons with a date. option 3 they will go ahead without me and let me know the outcome.

QUOTE (bevc @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 16:20) *
I did a speed awareness course following an offence in Sept 2015. I have never been offered another.


What type of offence was the course for?


Please see my previous reply :-)
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 10:34
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Have your parents sought an opinion from their GP as to whether they should be driving? Working in a hospital many elderly folk are stoically driving around even though it would be against medical advice, if they sought it.

Confirmation that they couldn't drive would make your EH argument stronger, with the caveat that they definitely wouldn't be able to drive in exchange for you having a better chance rolling the dice.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (bevc @ Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 10:03) *
I sent back my NIP and have had a form to request a date for my court hearing.


QUOTE (bevc @ Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 10:03) *
1 - Pleading not guilty
2 - Pleading guilty and attending court.
3 - Pleading guilty and not attending court.

I assume with options 1 and 2 they will then send me a summons with a date. option 3 they will go ahead without me and let me know the outcome.

So you haven't "had a form to request a date for my court hearing" at all, you have a summons or SJPN and are asked how you plead, presumably an SJPN?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 16:36
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I think in this case the OP's meaning was fairly clear, even if they have used colloquial terms.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 18:10
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Nope, it sounded to me like it had come from the safety camera office following an S172 response, rather than being at the summons stage. While it may have a reply section I’d hardly call a summons or SJPN a form!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 18:10


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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