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M25 EPPING, NR M/POST 5563A - variable speed limit, Threads merged
Plasticcouch81
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:09
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My wife got a NIp stating she was doing 68mph exceding a variable speed limit of 50mph
by NR M/POST 5563A

She is convinced there where not variable speed limit sign up at the time, and the fact she was doing 68 suggests the road was clear.

how can i find out if the gantry signes were on?

googling the gantry number flags up alot of freedom in information requests for the same gantry number. could it be afaulty and catching people incorectly??
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post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:09
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mickR
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 16:15
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Yes, hence my previous post confirming photos weren't on the OPs nip.
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Plasticcouch81
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:18
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My Wife got caught on the M25 27/01/2018doing 68mph when the variable speed limit was 50mph.

Letter came through from Essex Police 02/002/2018 intention to prosecute and asking for the driver identity

we sent off the driver identity etc then the fine came through £100 and three points so we paid the fine and sent the Driving licence off.

a few week later she got a summons for faliure to send off the driving licence, and becuse it wasn't sent registered we had no proof but we had paid the fine.

She spoke with somone at the courts who said to enter a guilty plea and say you paid the fine and sent the license of and you'll just get the 3 points and they will refund the original fine and send you a new one.

Just recived a new letter with a fine of £413 and four points!!!

this seem underhand and unfair considering we did everything properly and they lost the driving licence, so we have to also apply for a new licence too!!

whats peoples thoughts on what we should do???
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Jlc
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:35
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You can either appeal the sentence (but have a limited time to do this) or write to the court and ask them to reopen the case under s142 MCA:

QUOTE
The Clerk to the Justices
xxxx Magistrates Court

Dear Sir/Madam

On DD MMM 2018 I was convicted of an offence of speeding, fined £413 and given four penalty points. I am writing to request that the case be re-opened under s142 Magistrates' Courts Act as it is in the interests of justice to do so. The reason for this is that the court failed to follow the guidance given in the Magistrates Courts Sentencing Guidelines on page 453 regarding cases where a fixed penalty notice was available. I was offered a Fixed Penalty Notice for the speeding offence but was unable to take this up because my licence was lost in the post. This was an administrative reason unconnected with the offence, the circumstances covered by the guideline referred to above and therefore the starting point for consideration of sentence should have been the equivalent of the fixed penalty, not the guideline for speeding offence, as appears to have been the case.


The wording is here:

QUOTE
where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point
should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be
imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in
these circumstances.


I presume it was a SJPN rather than summons - they seem to have overlooked your comments but perhaps it wasn't clear enough.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:38


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:36
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I presume you didn't explain to the court in the written response that the driving licence was sent and had been lost? (or at least in a way that was obvious) If you didn't the court would sentence according to the normal guidelines. If you didn't tell them who would?

You can contact the court, explain the situation and ask if they will re-open the case in the interest of justice (something they can do under the magistrates court act) and submit they only apply the fixed penalty tariff as the reason the fixed penalty wasn't taken up was for reasons unconnected with the offence (they have specific guidance on that they could have followed had they known).

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:37


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Plasticcouch81
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:40
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I will check with the missus
but i'm sure she pointed out to the courts the fine had been paid and the license sent off but essex police claimed they had not recieved it

should we pay the other fine in the meantime or wait for a response?

we only have unitl the 6/08/18
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Jlc
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 07:43
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QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:40) *
but i'm sure she pointed out to the courts the fine had been paid and the license sent off but essex police claimed they had not recieved it

It would have helped to have explicitly pointed the sentencing guidelines out.

QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:40) *
should we pay the other fine in the meantime or wait for a response?

No - the court has to take action (or you, well your Wife, has to appeal).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 10:31
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Also going forward with this do not take advice from court staff - they are well meaning but not legally trained. It's like calling your GP surgery and having a 10 minute consultation with the receptionist.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:59
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QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:40) *
should we pay the other fine in the meantime or wait for a response?

we only have until the 6/08/18

Chase them, but if not resolved by then pay the fine (the licence will also have to be surrendered or it will be revoked) and continue to try and get it resolved.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:50
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:31) *
Also going forward with this do not take advice from court staff - they are well meaning but not legally trained. It's like calling your GP surgery and having a 10 minute consultation with the receptionist.

+1


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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roythebus
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 22:58
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I regularly use the top of the M25 at night and the variable speed limits are often left on for no reason at all. It is common at the Potters Bar junction 24 clockwise to see a camera flash on the speed sign gantry, then the following gantry shows blank, meaning the limited speed lasts until the Dartford Crossing where there is a 60 sign!

I've emailed highways England several times regarding this misleading information and usually get the same bland reply. Very often there is no visible reason for there to be a speed limit.
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Plasticcouch81
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 13:50) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:31) *
Also going forward with this do not take advice from court staff - they are well meaning but not legally trained. It's like calling your GP surgery and having a 10 minute consultation with the receptionist.

+1


The guy on the phone at the courts seems to think they did take into account the fact the licence was lost as the fine was £413 and not £900??

if the case is re opened can they increase the fine again or add more points??
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Jlc
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:50
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Did you submit a statement of means? (MC100)

The usual sentence for that excess would be 4 or maybe 5 points. A fine of 66% of relevant (post deductions) weekly earnings, costs of £85 and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

So if your weekly earnings submitted were £450, then this would be around £297+£85+£30=£412.

QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:31) *
The guy on the phone at the courts seems to think they did take into account the fact the licence was lost as the fine was £413 and not £900??

laugh.gif As noted above, the court staff can be well meaning but are so so wrong...

QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:31) *
if the case is re opened can they increase the fine again or add more points??

Yes, it can work either way.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:30
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QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:31) *
if the case is re opened can they increase the fine again or add more points??

Yes but practically not greatly unless your wife's income is more than £450 a week as noted by Jlc.

However the magistrates sentencing guidelines are that they sentence at fixed penalty level if one cannot be taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence. So if you adequately draw attention to the circumstances, and a polite reminder of the sentencing guidelines that Jlc has linked you to, they would be ignoring their own guidance if they did. And generally magistrates stick very closely to their sentencing guidelines.

They will not increase the fine merely to "punish" you for asking for the case to be reopened. You aren't playing doubles or quits.

The most likely outcome should be £100 fine + £85 costs + £30 victim surcharge + 3 points.
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Jlc
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:57
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Best possible outcome could be 3 points, £70 fine, £30 surcharge and no costs order.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 20:52
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I think that is incredibly unlikely to happen. The victim surcharge is a required by the CJA 2003, not a guideline. They would be going against the law and their own sentencing guidelines if they transparently reduced the fine - which they had already set at £100 because of the sentencing guidelines - simply to absorb an obligatory surcharge.

The only permitted exceptions are to prioritise compensation if a defendant cannot afford to pay both, or if they are making an order under the Mental Capacity Act. Those are very narrow exceptions and do not apply in this case.
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Jlc
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:46
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:52) *
I think that is incredibly unlikely to happen.

But it does.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:10
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:46) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:52) *
I think that is incredibly unlikely to happen.

But it does.

Example?

I don't doubt it does very very occasionally but you might as well say best result is acquittal because the magistrates thought you were a lovely person, or the prosecutor was on coke, or you are a skilled hypnotist. You'd get good odds on it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 17:57) *
Best possible outcome could be 3 points, £70 fine, £30 surcharge and no costs order.



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:52) *
I think that is incredibly unlikely to happen. The victim surcharge is a required by the CJA 2003, not a guideline. They would be going against the law and their own sentencing guidelines if they transparently reduced the fine - which they had already set at £100 because of the sentencing guidelines - simply to absorb an obligatory surcharge.

The only permitted exceptions are to prioritise compensation if a defendant cannot afford to pay both, or if they are making an order under the Mental Capacity Act. Those are very narrow exceptions and do not apply in this case.

It happens in at least two areas that I know of. The standard procedure when sentencing at the Fixed Penalty level is £70 fine, £30 VS and no costs. The guidance on sentencing at the FP level includes the phrase that the defendant should not be disadvantaged as a result of being unable to accept a Fixed Penalty. To charge him more than £100 would clearly put him at a disadvantage. (I think we've covered this before).

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:17
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Plasticcouch81
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 13:17
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:50) *
Did you submit a statement of means? (MC100)

The usual sentence for that excess would be 4 or maybe 5 points. A fine of 66% of relevant (post deductions) weekly earnings, costs of £85 and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

So if your weekly earnings submitted were £450, then this would be around £297+£85+£30=£412.

QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:31) *
The guy on the phone at the courts seems to think they did take into account the fact the licence was lost as the fine was £413 and not £900??

laugh.gif As noted above, the court staff can be well meaning but are so so wrong...

QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:31) *
if the case is re opened can they increase the fine again or add more points??

Yes, it can work either way.



We did not fill out a MC100, however my wifes earnings are alot less than 450!! she only does three days a week

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Jlc
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 13:24
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QUOTE (Plasticcouch81 @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:17) *
We did not fill out a MC100

Then default court figure would have been used - currently £440. (Which is close enough to explain the £413).

Has the court been contacted yet?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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