PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Motorway variable speed limits
Tsst
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:10
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,839



Hi,



Last night I was traveling on M25 and the gantry I was heading to was displaying a restricted speed limit of 50 mph. The next gantry displayed 40 mph. However the following 2 gantries were blank ( no speed restriction limit displayed ) and the 3rd gantry following that displayed the "National Speed Limit" sign.



If there is no speed restriction displayed on a particular gantry following a gantry which displays a speed restriction does it mean that there is no restriction anymore ( which is 70 MPH )? As I understand there should be a derestriction sign displayed specifically to inform the motorists that the speed limit restriction has ended but this does not always seem to be the case.



I have drawn a diagram to better explain the query that I have. When passing under gantries 3 and 4 what should the speed limit be?





GANTRY 1: 50 MPH displayed -----> GANTRY 2: 40 MPH displayed ------> GANTRY 3: BLANK ------> GANTRY 4: BLANK -----> GANTRY 5: NATIONAL SPEED LIMIT displayed



Regards
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
6 Pages V  « < 4 5 6  
Start new topic
Replies (100 - 110)
Advertisement
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:10
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Churchmouse
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 16:34
Post #101


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,960
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
From: Landan
Member No.: 20,731



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 00:08) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 19:49) *
......….Can anyone explain why the authorities would intentionally un-light variable speed limit signs in the midst of a speed limiting operation? I can see no rational basis. Energy conservation? Or perhaps there are a hell of a lot of faulty variable speed limit signs out there...

--Churchmouse



They don't.
But that doesn't mean that blank signs don't or can't exist.
That there could not be a system fault or operator error.
We drive to the basic rule that a limit applies until another sign changes it every day on every road, including motorways.
Drive down a dual carriageway at NSL and pass a 50 sign, you know the limit is 50 and will stay at 50 until another sign says different.
Enter a motorway and there is an NSL sign on the slip, we drive knowing the NSL applies unless another sign changes it.
We enter some roadworks and there is a big 50 sign at the start, we drive knowing that is the speed limit until we pass another, probably NSL sign that says the limit has ended and another applies.
We enter a VSL section and there is a warning sign for VSL and gantries.
1st gantry, blank, means the last speed limit applies which would be NSL
2nd gantry, same.
3 gantry, 60, which shows the speed that applies
4th gantry, 60
5th gantry blank..... means the last signed (60) limit still applies, why assume that means any different to the speed restriction as applied on any other road ?

Oh, please. I can't believe you bothered typing that patronising list of inapt examples. None of them included the analogue equivalent of a "blank sign", which is what this entire discussion is about. (And no mention of "repeaters"?)

There does not appear to be any logical reason to have blank VSL signs on an active smart motorway, so whilst you may be satisfied with an answer that requires both a loose reading of one regulation and a hyper-technical reading of another, I am not.

--Churchmouse
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 18:44
Post #102


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,223
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Well, er, I see loads of unlit gantry speed limit displays on our VSL motorways. According to you they should all display the NSL Speed limit sign, but they don't. Maybe they just want to save on the electricity bill ! The plain fact is that there seem to be no rules or even regulations as to what each gantry should display. Seems to me about time there were some, so we can know when they have boobed and when not.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 19:16
Post #103


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,426
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 17:34) *
.........Oh, please. I can't believe you bothered typing that patronising list of inapt examples. None of them included the analogue equivalent of a "blank sign", which is what this entire discussion is about. (And no mention of "repeaters"?)

There does not appear to be any logical reason to have blank VSL signs on an active smart motorway, so whilst you may be satisfied with an answer that requires both a loose reading of one regulation and a hyper-technical reading of another, I am not.

--Churchmouse


Intent was not to be patronising.
Simply an attempt to illustrate how signs work generally and how this carries over.
Analogue equivalent of a blank sign? Perhaps when one is hidden in the bushes or missing entirely ?
Repeaters I will accept as a factor on normal roads but there are none on motorways so I hardly think inapt.

Blank signs on VSL sections exist, they are a fact of life.
Whether they should exist in the middle of an active section is something we agree on, they should not.
Nor should they exist at the end except after an NSL sign.
Perhaps you disagree with that last but is based on my reading of the regulations.


Now, perhaps you could clarify which clause requires loose reading and which hyper technical ?

Ignore all else and concentrate on 3(2)
Please explain what that means whether loosely read or otherwise ?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/71...gulation/3/made
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 20:16
Post #104


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,691
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 19:44) *
Well, er, I see loads of unlit gantry speed limit displays on our VSL motorways. According to you they should all display the NSL Speed limit sign, but they don't. Maybe they just want to save on the electricity bill ! The plain fact is that there seem to be no rules or even regulations as to what each gantry should display. Seems to me about time there were some, so we can know when they have boobed and when not.

Blank gantries when no limit other than NSL applies makes sense. However, a gantry indicating the end of a lower limit ought to display NSL (as a matter of common sense if not law). A single blank gantry in a series of gantries displaying a lower limit is more of an issue, and presumably the one that is causing difficulties.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 20:51
Post #105


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,470
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



If there was a guarantee of NSL signs at the end of a restriction logically there would be no need for a physical NSL sign as well, unless you think there is a purpose to restricting 200 metres of carriageway.

(They were showing 40mph tonight as well. In fact they seem to permanently show 40mph.)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5592967,-...3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 21:07
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 21:10
Post #106


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,691
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 21:51) *
there would be no need for a physical NSL sign as well


Correct.

QUOTE
unless you think there is a purpose to restricting 200 metres of carriageway.


I don’t believe I said so?



--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 18:06
Post #107


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,691
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 23:06) *
In this regulation—

“national speed limit” has the meaning given by Schedule 1 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions and a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force means a traffic sign of the type shown in diagram 671 in Part 2 of Schedule 10 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions which is—
(a) placed on or near a road; and
(b) directed at traffic on the carriageway on which the vehicle is being driven;

...

“speed limit sign” in relation to a vehicle, means a traffic sign of the type shown in diagram 670 in Part 2 of Schedule 10 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions which is—
(a) situated on or near any part of a road specified in paragraph 1 of the Schedule; and
(b) directed at traffic on the carriageway on which the vehicle is being driven.


So far as I am aware a blank gantry is neither a sign conforming to diagram 670 nor 671. So, for the purposes of the Regulations there is an argument that it doesn’t convey a speed limit or the national speed limit. Further, it can be argued that it cannot be said to convey anything within Reg 3(2)© - a speed limit or the national speed limit. So arguably the vehicle has not passed a subsequent sign etc and the previous limit applies.

Interestingly, the above definition of a speed limit sign was criticised as being “vulnerable if it were challenged” in legal advice given to the Highways Agency way back in 2010.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:24
Post #108


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,470
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Depends who the legal advice was from. If I see any more "legal advice" from the crayon brandishers at Road Safety Support I think I will tear even more of my hair out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:28
Post #109


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,691
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 20:24) *
Depends who the legal advice was from. If I see any more "legal advice" from the crayon brandishers at Road Safety Support I think I will tear even more of my hair out.

I believe it was from a chambers.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:37
Post #110


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,470
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Fair enough. What was the vulnerability, that VSL doesn't look close enough to 670/671 to count even with the general "if a matrix sign looks a bit like a real sign, it's legit" provisions?

You do wonder why over twenty years they didn't just make a new diagram with white on black rather than relying on a fudge.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:55
Post #111


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,691
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 20:37) *
Fair enough. What was the vulnerability, that VSL doesn't look close enough to 670/671 to count even with the general "if a matrix sign looks a bit like a real sign, it's legit" provisions?

Pretty much. They’re neither authorised nor prescribed and thus not can’t convey adequate guidance. That was the position then.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V  « < 4 5 6
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 21st October 2018 - 13:26
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.