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Parking ticket received, machines not working.
sabs
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 12:24
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Hiya,

I received a ticket at the beginning of September for parking without a valid pay and display ticket. The machine went working and there was a pay by phone option, however I didn’t haven’t phone.
My 3 year old was starting a new school and I was taking her for the first time to start settling, I also had my 7month old son with me.
The next machine was too far for me to walk with both kids, as I suffer from severe Rgeumatoid arthritis.

I appealed the initial PCN which was rejected, and am now waiting for the letter for me to appeal to the adjudicator. It doesn’t help that I had a hire car company at the time so have had to already pay out due to administration fees.

The following day my husband took my daughter for settling and he walked the whole road, the side roads and not 1 machine was working. He walked an unreasonable distance to get a ticket to display. I called the council to let them know about their machines to which I was told all the machines around Newham have the same problem.

I asked why people are given tickets if the council are aware of this problem, to which she said there is an alternative which is to pay by phone or to park elsewhere.

I had intentions to pay for my ticket, I ensured I had cash and change on me to do this, but unfortunately my phone was left behind and rushing with two young kids.

Currently I am being asked to pay the full amount of £135.00 , and really do not want to pay if I have a case to fight this .
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post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 12:24
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sabs
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:50
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The first rep said the payment will be made, second rep said th cheque has already been sent.
She said the charge will automatically be taken out of my card account, but his hasn’t happened yet.

I will email the above to them later today. Thanks for your help .
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:58
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There cannot be a NOR.

What we have seen is Enterprise's letter which is clear: this letter is not reps[for the purpose of transfer of liability]

This has a legal connotation which has nothing to do with appealing to an adjudicator,

And it's the most current correspondence,
And as it is to the authority the OP may presume that it is from a competent person within Enterprise,
And IMO the OP may act on it (instead of the ping-pong emails ) as being Enterprise's current position - they're not required to go back to the Ark and assess this in light of preceding info,
And if the s**t subsequently hits the fan, then the OP must get their position clear with Enterprise now.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:59
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DancingDad
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 11:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 10:58) *
There cannot be a NOR. ........


According to earlier posts, Enterprise tried to transfer liability and this was knocked back by Newham.
Only method of transferring officially is via a challenge to NTO.
Only method of knock back, is an NOR.

Yes, OP may have misunderstood and yes, I agree with you on getting the facts and case straight with Enterprise.
But am not as relaxed on dismissing what seems to have happened because we have not seen the paperwork.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:54
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we have not seen the paperwork.

Too right and the basis of so many long threads.

The only written evidence we have seen from a competent officer of the company to the authority states that 'this isn't reps' which clearly implies reps have not been made previously.

I can't unravel this, all I know is that as far as evidence in the context of the contract is concerned IMO the OP should act on the letter dated 19 Feb. No contractual fault could attach to them for doing so, and as regards parking regs the OP has no standing.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:55
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sabs
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 08:49
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The Below is what I got back from rep this morning g.
I think my best bet will be to wait for councils response?

Good morning,

You will have to explain the grounds you wish to appeal on, attach all your evidence and the letter of authority to the council.

Kind regards
cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
Enterprise House
203 London Road
Staines-upon-Thames
Surrey
TW18 4HR
enterprise.co.uk



From: Sabiha Daria [mailto
Sent: 22 February 2018 19:48
To: Mundabi, Mbumba O
Subject: Re: Letter of Authority

Hi Olivia,

Thank you for you letter dated 19 Feb.

As my hire contract is with you, I have carried out your instructions to write to the council, see copy of my letter.
However, I would advise you that this is contrary to parking legislation because only the recipient of the NTO may make representations ( I have enclosed an extract of the relevant regulations).

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

I do not know how the authority will respond to your extra-procedural letter or my letter but would advise you that I cannot be held liable by you should the authority disregard this correspondence and possibly send you a charge certificate after the expiry of the 28-day payment period as they are entitled to do.

I am also still awaiting the copy of the Notice of Rejection that the council sent to you.
I would be grateful if you can provide this as soon as possible.

Many Thanks
Sabiha
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hcandersen
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 11:29
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No. You must deal with correspondence in a timely manner and do not leave matters open-ended.

Dear Ms Mundbi,

Thank you for your email dated ***** in response to my email dated ****.

I can only restate the position regarding national parking regulations as they apply to England which is that only the recipient may make representations against a Notice to Owner. This cannot be unilaterally amended by me, Enterprise or the authority. I ask you to take advice on this if it would help and to accept that I am being as co-operative as I can be bearing in mind that, as regards parking regulations, I have no legal standing: only Enterprise may make representations and the only means by which liability for the PCN may be transferred to me is for you to make representations to this effect, I am afraid that a letter from you stating that it should not be considered as representations but that the authority should accept representations from me is wholly extra-procedural and improper.

I would again respectfully suggest that either you use my previous draft as your representations or simply seek to transfer liability under the applicable grounds.
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sabs
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 11:43
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Will do.
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sabs
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 14:08
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Enterprises response ...

Good afternoon,

The letter of authority is a standard procedure which we give to all our customers if they wish to make an appeal. As you are third party, you can only appeal the fine if you are permitted to by the registered keeper. The letter of authority is permission from the registered keeper that you can appeal this penalty. It is recognized by issuing agencies as we are a hire firm. We do not make appeals on behalf of customers, it is the customers responsibility to appeal this with the letter of authority. If the customer does not appeal this then they are still liable for the charges.

Kind regards
cid:image001.gif@01D2AEC3.7DDDA860
Olivia Mundabi
Citations Coordinator
UK & Ireland Traffic Violations Division

01784428010 Department
E219V0@ERAC.COM
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DancingDad
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 14:44
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That's fair enough but I for one haven't a clue where we are in process.
I thought an NOR had been served but not sure now.
SAB, any idea ?
Or could you confirm with Enterprise what steps they have taken and what they have received?
And dates of Notices, clock is ticking and I'd not like it to run out
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sabs
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 16:05
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So.. enterprise said they provided the authority with a NOT , not sure if date. And they said authority sent them a NOR in return. They have since made the payment to the council for the fine as they were worried it would escalate.

I have written to the council with the LOA asking for paperwork in order for me to appeal. Have not heard from them yet.

I have asked Rnterprose for the dates.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 16:11
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It's not correct and has no basis in law.

The authority cannot consider reps from you as if you were the recipient and could not issue a NOR to anyone other than the recipient.

I would reply again, remember you've got one eye on the contractual aspects of this and YOU MUST be seen to be co-operative and reasonable.

Dear ****

Thnk you for your last email.

While this might be your standard practice, it has no basis in authorised procedure. I am more than willing to make representations in my own name against a NTO of which I am the recipient and if you wish to transfer liability to me then please do so. Until then, I regret I am unwilling to prejudice your and my legal positions by acting as you suggest and therefore I am unable to help you beyond what I have already done. I would add that should representations not be made to the authority and therefore the discount not re-offered, which is common practice, or a charge certificate issued then responsibility for and consequences of this must lie with yourselves.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 16:24
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Sorry, I know you are being pulled by myself and HCA but again, if they have had an NOR then the authority can be used for an appeal.
If not, I agree with HCA.

Enterprise are not helping you in the slightest and I agree that we cannot work on guesses or assumptions
But Enterprise can clarify and copy you all they have.
If they cannot, then they have, to put it nicely, 'effed up and that comes down HCA's position.
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sabs
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:12
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It’s so frustrating.
They have lost the NOR , I have asked them to ask the authority for another copy .
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hcandersen
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:20
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OP, you've gone from posting written evidence to...

So.. enterprise said they provided the authority with a NOT , not sure if date. And they said authority sent them a NOR in return. They have since made the payment to the council for the fine as they were worried it would escalate.

And because the correct legal terms are NOT used ( biggrin.gif ) we're stuffed as to a proper understanding.

There is no such thing as a NOT, it's as real as the Cheshire Cat.

Stop writing to the council, you are making life complicated.

You have NO legal standing unless you receive a NTO in your name. Please, please, understand this and IMO do what I suggested and write to E and tell them you will not do anything.

If you continue to think you can correspond with the council who IMO under data protection are prevented from sending you any correspondence between them and E unless authorised by E, which I don't think their letter of 19th does, but it's debatable, then you will make a mess of matters and trying to unravel this later will be made more difficult.

Have you checked your account? Have you been charged - the letter of 19th suggests otherwise, see the last paragraph? If so, having sent my suggested email, give matters 7 days then come back here.
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sabs
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 10:54
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Apologies, I don’t mean to cause confusion.
I’m not very familiar with these processes and terminology .

Just to be clear, I am not continuing to contact the authority. I have written to them once with the LOA, and I have asked enterprise to do the communication from their end in terms of getting the paperwork together and to me.

The Money hasn’t been taken out yet.

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hcandersen
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 11:12
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do the communication from their end in terms of getting the paperwork together and to me.

I don't know what this means.

If you intend to play E's game according to their 'procedure', then I cannot help you from the perspective of parking regs.

You have no standing in parking law, I don't know how else this can be written.

Of course the authority may act unlawfully and deal with you, who knows?

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sabs
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:21
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Quick update on this.
Enterprise have not taken any money out yet, and I have also not yet heard from the council.
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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 13:44
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QUOTE (sabs @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:21) *
Quick update on this.
Enterprise have not taken any money out yet, and I have also not yet heard from the council.

At the end of t he day it's for Enterprise to appeal on the grounds that they are a hire company, if they fail to do this, they cannot charge you, no matter what their terms and conditions might say.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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