31J Contraventions - STopping in Yellow Junction box, can I appeal this 31J contravention |
31J Contraventions - STopping in Yellow Junction box, can I appeal this 31J contravention |
Sun, 26 Mar 2023 - 23:17
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 26 Mar 2023 Member No.: 119,503 |
Hi,
I got a ticket fro, Kingston Upon Thames for a contracention 31J for stopping in a Yellow Junction box on LOndon Road. Please see the link where I have uploaded the video evidence from the council website. My car in the black estate car with the bike rack on top https://youtu.be/ugR1ksNdPh8 Please could you guide me on whether I have a chance to appeal this. The 14 day discount penalty period ends on the 30th. I entered the yellow box, the traffic was free flowing and the exit was clear. The car in front of me then suddenly stopped and I had to stop because of that. ALso, the time of contravention on the PCN is listed at 13:27 whereas i only entered the yellow junction box at 13:27:44 Thanks for taking the time to help me with this. |
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Sun, 26 Mar 2023 - 23:17
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Sun, 26 Mar 2023 - 23:41
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,914 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Well, sorry, but you charged into the box in a very gung-ho fashion, with no hesitation at all, and, of course, the car in front if you stopped in traffic. This is what happens on busy streets in London, so care is very necessary.
However there was room on the left to exit the box. What is strange, however, is that instead of moving up to the rear of the stopped car, you stopped with the whole of your car in the box; why ? It looks as if there was just enough room for you to exit. If not, at least virtually all of your car would have been out of the box, and you could have argued de minimis . As it is, I can't see a win here at London Tribunals which is where you'll have to go to argue it, as the council will never give way in this one. |
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Mon, 27 Mar 2023 - 00:44
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,402 Joined: 14 Apr 2022 Member No.: 116,298 |
Let's see the PCN all sides in case there is a fault or two.
-------------------- People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.
People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life. Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life. Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life. One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life. As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life. The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life. It's all in the wrist. |
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Mon, 27 Mar 2023 - 07:08
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Let's not be too hasty.
Here are the positions of the two cars in front just as they leave the box And here is where the car immediately in front comes to rest. There is a diagonal shadow across the road which broadly coincides with where the rear of the stopped car in front. Both the two cars in front are behind it at the point they leave the box. Therefore I think on balance of probabilities the OP could have exited if he had wanted to as he had room to pull up to that point in the road. In which case, no contravention. OP if you can share the PCN, we can check for errors, and I can find this road on google maps and do a more thorough distance analysis. This post has been edited by MrChips: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 - 07:14 |
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Mon, 27 Mar 2023 - 11:03
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
There was plenty of room to clear the box and that would be obvious on your approach the car in front stopped short as did you so the reason for stopping is not made out
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 08:54
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#6
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 26 Mar 2023 Member No.: 119,503 |
Dear all - thanks for the replies so far. Please see attached the all sides of the PCN.I look forward to your responses. I could not upload the images of the PCN directly as the upload feature of the forum said file is too big. I have uploaded them on Wetransfer and sharing the link with you.
Please let me know if you are able to see the files. If not, would you have any other suggestions on how i can share them with you? Please use the link below to see the images of my PCN. https://we.tl/t-Wkl7benuIT |
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 09:14
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Read the section READ THIS sticky and amend title with council and location and note how to post materials.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=147985 |
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 09:38
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#8
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 26 Mar 2023 Member No.: 119,503 |
@stamfordman - I have uploaded the photos to a hosting site(Wetransfer) and shared the link, as suggested by the help page.
Hopefully members are able to click on the link and see the photos of the PCN. If not, please could you let me know. Also my PCN number is QT07393496 and car registration is RE17YOR |
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 12:38
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Are you able to provide a link to the location on Google Street view? I've been (virtually) along London Road and can't see where this box is.
This post has been edited by MrChips: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 12:39 |
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 13:00
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#10
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 26 Mar 2023 Member No.: 119,503 |
I believe it is this, which I have zoomed into google maps and tried to locate the YJB and share the link
- https://goo.gl/maps/mJMrWjTXM2Y7MVFB6 on the PCN, it just says London Road |
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Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 13:38
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Thanks - do you know the length of your vehicle? A quick google search suggests typical estate car length of 4.6-4.7m which I've marked out below.
Hard to tell from the video but there is a hatch on the traffic island to the right of the car that stops immediately in front of you which seems to be behind it on the video. That suggests at least 4.6m of clearance ahead of the box from the distance analysis (below). Separately, there's more than one box junction on London Road so you could add an argument that the PCN is too vague in specifying the contravention and its location. |
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Wed, 29 Mar 2023 - 19:59
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
As far as I can find out, a 2017 Audi A6 estate is 16 feet 2 inches long.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 29 Mar 2023 - 22:04
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
OK, 16ft 2 inches is 4.93 metres. Here's an updated graphic showing there was in excess of 5m of clearance (judging that the car in front had passed the hatch circled in red when it stopped).
Assuming so, then no contravention as the OP didn't have to stop - they just chose to due to a misjudgement. |
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Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 18:08
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
MrChips it sounds like you have a draft representation in mind?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 18:09
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Yes, happy to draft, assuming there is general agreement this is a valid appeal point.
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Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 22:23
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,914 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Yes, happy to draft, assuming there is general agreement this is a valid appeal point. What is valid is the available distance beyond the YBJ that would have allowed the OP's car to fit into it. However, the contravention wording of "has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles" means the case would revolve around whether the OP's car fitted the contravention requirements. It could go either way, and I suspect would depend on the adjudicator "on the day". Some seem to be real 'hanging judges', to be honest. And, of course the OP will have to risk the full PCN penalty, so would be liable for an extra £65. |
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Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 23:02
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
OK - starter for ten...
Dear Kingston Re PCN XXXXXXXXXX I recently received the above PCN. Thank you for making available video footage which has enabled me to review the circumstances around my recent stop in a yellow box junction to which this PCN relates. When it comes to box junctions, it is important to fully understand the regulations which set out precisely the events which lead to an offence. They are as follows: "a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles" The drafting makes it clear that not all stops within a box junction are automatically an offence. To commit a contravention not only does the stop need to be caused by stationary vehicles, but it also has to be strictly necessary in the circumstances (indicated by the deliberate inclusion of the words "has to" by the draftsman). To put this another way, stops within the box junction which are voluntary and not necessitated by the presence of stationary vehicles are not punishable. Reviewing the footage provided, I can see that I did indeed cause my vehicle to enter the box junction and that it did come to a stop within it with a stationary vehicle ahead of the box on my chosen exit. However, from a distance analysis undertaken via Googlemaps, I can see that at the point my vehicle comes to rest, there is at least 5 metres of clear space beyond the box junction that I could have moved into (my car is less than 5 metres in length). This means that instead of stopping where I did I could have chosen to continue moving through the box into the vacant space beyond without stopping within the box. This fact is further demonstrated by analysing the video carefully - the rear of the stationary vehicle coincides with a diagonal shadow across the road. At the point the cars which passed through the box before my own clear the box, the fronts of those cars are behind this diagonal shadow, and as such it is clear there was sufficient space behind the stationary car to accommodate my vehicle. Consequently, while I did come to a stop within the box with my chosen exit blocked by a stationary vehicle, the circumstances at the time mean that I did not have to and as such that critical part of the contravention wording is not satisfied and as such the contravention as stated did not occur. On this basis I therefore look forward to confirmation that this PCN is cancelled. Yours faithfully, |
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Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:19
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would change "strictly necessary" to "necessary" (don't want to set the bar too high), but other than that I think it's good to go.
I agree it is an arguable appeal, though it would very much depend on which adjudicator you happen to get on the day. A failure to consider in the rejection could help though. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:23
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,402 Joined: 14 Apr 2022 Member No.: 116,298 |
Edited.
This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:25 -------------------- People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.
People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life. Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life. Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life. One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life. As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life. The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life. It's all in the wrist. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 10:57 |