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Yellow Box PCN validity? (with video), Stopped around 5 sec in a Yellow box, while turning right
edsr
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:44
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Hi All,

My first post so please go easy on me.

And a huge thanks to everyone making this forum possible and doing something for the greater good!

So I had a PCN through - on video a few days ago, stopped in a yellow box. £65 or £130 depending how fast I pay the ransom. Address and other details on the ticket all valid.

Was driving on a Friday afternoon in London. It was carnage. I was trying to follow a sat nav, struggling to know what lane to be in, high vehicles all round me, getting cut up and mopeds with death-wishes... and trying to be a courteous driver!

Anyway here's the video https://sendvid.com/yohefuha

I've read that you can't be prosecuted for stopping in a yellow box, while turning right, if held up by other traffic turning right - do I have a case to dispute the ticket here?

It's an odd junction, as you can either turn left, or right, but there's no straight-on, just a choice of two 'right' routes. The right turn and multiple lanes definitely obscures the view of traffic exiting the box. Is there anything else? Yellow lines not up to the kerb? I think I'm stopped for just over 5 secs based on the video duration. I could also (if I'd needed to for any reason) have taken a left lane, but as I could see traffic moving ahead of me, I knew I'd be out of the box any moment.

In addition, there's a low car a few ahead of me that I may not have seen over the top of the other cars, and so could reasonably have thought (in a split second) that there was sufficient car lengths ahead of me so as not to become stopped in the yellow box. And in the distance, traffic was moving; I knew I'd be out of there - I'd never deliberately park in a yellow box - I don't want to be 'that guy'.

Any help with regards to ascertaining the validity of the PCN would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Ed

This post has been edited by edsr: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:48
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post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:44
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makara
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:48
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Post up PCN - both sides - remove personal details
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4101
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:50
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if you are the golf, then you are probably doomed
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 23:11
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I think here.

This decision seems wrong to me i think this is part of a gyratory system

2170442131

Mr Anthony Banton has attended on behalf of his wife as the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Talgarth Road at the junction with Butterwick at 6.33pm on 8 May 2017.
Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.
Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.
Mr Banton appeals because he says that the car entered the box to make a right turn out of the box and that the vehicle stopped in the box due to other traffic waiting to complete the right turn.
I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case. The footage shows that Mrs Banton’s car stopped within the box to make a right turn out of the box and was prevented from completing the right turn by a stationary vehicle in front which had also made the right turn.
The Council, in its Notice of Rejection letter to Mrs Banton dated 24 July 2017, stated that a motorist may only stop a vehicle in the box to make a right turn if they are prevented from turning right by oncoming traffic. The Notice states: “You were turning right with no oncoming traffic to block you, only traffic crossing in the direction you were intending to turn”.
The wording of the exemption in Paragraph 7(2) is expressed in the alternative. The exemption applies to allow the vehicle to stop in the box for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. In other words, it is not necessary for both conditions to exist for the exemption to apply. It is sufficient that the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. That is, in my judgement, the correct reading of the statutory provision. There is no requirement for the exit to be blocked by oncoming traffic. It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Whilst I accept that the vehicle in front of Mrs Banton’s car had technically completed the right turn, it would make a nonsense of Paragraph 7(2) for the right turn exemption not to apply just because the next vehicle making the right turn manages to clear the box rather than having to stop within it.


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stamfordman
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 23:24
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We see a lot at this junction under the Hammersmith flyover. Sight lanes are poor when you're down low in a car.

That's an interesting judgement PMB - but unlikely to be repeated in my view as you say.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4914873,-0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 23:28
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4101
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:02
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was not turning right, followed road ahead.
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StuartBu
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:48
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QUOTE (4101 @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:02) *
was not turning right, followed road ahead.

So when is “ Turning Right” not “ Turning Right”?
At that junction if all the traffic is coming from the one direction what is the point of the YB . I can see cars turning left as well but I was watching to see if any cars come from that piece of road on the RHS but can only see what looks like a stationary car at the edge of the frame.
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4101
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:56
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:48) *
QUOTE (4101 @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 00:02) *
was not turning right, followed road ahead.

So when is “ Turning Right” not “ Turning Right”?
At that junction if all the traffic is coming from the one direction what is the point of the YB . I can see cars turning left as well but I was watching to see if any cars come from that piece of road on the RHS but can only see what looks like a stationary car at the edge of the frame.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3SAnDQiPqQ
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John U.K.
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 10:48
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QUOTE
Sight lanes are poor when you're down low in a car.


I use the Hammersmith gyratory a lot. Sight lines not bad for continuing towards A4, A306 etc. Can be really bad if you're wanting the A219(S) as can be impossible to see round the corner.

QUOTE
At that junction if all the traffic is coming from the one direction what is the point of the YB . I can see cars turning left as well but I was watching to see if any cars come from that piece of road on the RHS but can only see what looks like a stationary car at the edge of the frame.


Stu, believe me, even with the YBJ this junction can get clogged solid! The innocent road feeding in at top RH of frame is slip road from A4. The 2 lanes for the A219 narrow to one on leaving the gyratory, where 'buses (S.bound) from the 'bus station join to the motorists' right, and the 'bus crosses the incoming traffic in is left to reach a 'bus stop.

See the vid 4101 posted!

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StuartBu
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 15:21
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 10:48) *
Stu, believe me, even with the YBJ this junction can get clogged solid! The innocent road feeding in at top RH of frame is slip road from A4. The 2 lanes for the A219 narrow to one on leaving the gyratory, where 'buses (S.bound) from the 'bus station join to the motorists' right, and the 'bus crosses the incoming traffic in is left to reach a 'bus stop.

See the vid 4101 posted!


What a mess of a junction !!! Can you imagine if all cars waited until the exit was clear before proceeding ...Cars at the back could have tea and sandwiches while waiting .why don't they put traffic lights up.
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John U.K.
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:20
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QUOTE
why don't they put traffic lights up.


Ther are lights = lots. Take a GSV drive around the gyratory, starting here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Butterw...33;4d-0.2223288

suspect from shadows they filmed around 6am on a Sunday morning.
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edsr
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:04
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Wow, thanks everyone!

Yes I am driving the white Golf

As suggested I have attached pictures of the PCN... https://ibb.co/e0C1Vn

Is there a standard letter that anyone can point me to (assuming people think it's worth fighting)?

Thanks again : )



This post has been edited by edsr: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:18
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edsr
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:01
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Just to follow-up, having looked at @John U.K. 's link, it shows the distinct lack of any signage for the routing of the junction as you approach it, advising which lane you need to be in.

Given the road markings would have been obscured by other vehicles, there's no way of telling which lane you need to be in. The only way I knew where I was going was because of the Sat Nav.

Based on that, I wouldn't have necessarily known that I was 'following the road ahead', due to the poor visibility to my right. Had there been (what I would consider to be) adequate signage showing what lane is going in what direction, then I would have known I was following the road ahead. But without the signage, i would not have reasonably known, on entering the box junction, that I was not 'turning right'.

In fact the box junction itself helps to conceal the fact that you're following the road ahead, which is made even less clear because four lanes of traffic merge into five, across the box, so it's totally unclear what lane you need to be in.

I am not sure whether there is any legal substance to any of this of course!?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE (edsr @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:01) *
Just to follow-up, having looked at @John U.K. 's link, it shows the distinct lack of any signage for the routing of the junction as you approach it, advising which lane you need to be in.

Given the road markings would have been obscured by other vehicles, there's no way of telling which lane you need to be in. The only way I knew where I was going was because of the Sat Nav.

Based on that, I wouldn't have necessarily known that I was 'following the road ahead', due to the poor visibility to my right. Had there been (what I would consider to be) adequate signage showing what lane is going in what direction, then I would have known I was following the road ahead. But without the signage, i would not have reasonably known, on entering the box junction, that I was not 'turning right'.

In fact the box junction itself helps to conceal the fact that you're following the road ahead, which is made even less clear because four lanes of traffic merge into five, across the box, so it's totally unclear what lane you need to be in.

I am not sure whether there is any legal substance to any of this of course!?


Only if you can justify going through a red light coz you didn't know what lane to be in


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hcandersen
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:11
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Can we return to the law.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/made

You are item 25 Part 6 Sign Table.

Para. 11 of Part 7 applies.

You are a 'box junction' described in 6(b), therefore the turning right defence is not available, this applies to junctions covered by 6(a).
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StuartBu
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 23:20
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:20) *
QUOTE
why don't they put traffic lights up.


Ther are lights = lots. Take a GSV drive around the gyratory, starting here

suspect from shadows they filmed around 6am on a Sunday morning.


So there are ..I was so busy watching the traffic coming round the corner I never noticed the Traffic Light Poles . It's still a mess tho'
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