York Council PCN, Rules regarding signage and residential zones Options

[sophie.turner]

Hello, looking for some advice. I've been reading through several threads but can't find an exact match to my circumstances.

Summary: Got ticket on a residential area with no white parking bay markings or Signage nearby on either side of road. Got ticket, proof shows SINGLE signage far away saying 'residential zone beyond this point'. The only sign was at entrance to busy junction with cycling lane and lots of traffic, easily missed. no other signage on other end of the road which lead to a Park and footbridge over the river.

Initial appeal rejected without even reviewing the video of appeal evidence. No reply sent to appeal, only found out about rejection when Notification to Owner letter sent. Is there a rule that they need to send the letter within 30 days?

Should I appeal and risk missing chance to pay half. Don't know if they are allowed to simply put ONE signage at entrance and no parking bay markings.Feel cheated. Any advice regarding rules is appreciated.

I can provide any additional information required. thanks in advance

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[cp8759]

As you will see from many other threads, our advice is generally to just write "detailed grounds to follow" and register the appeal without submitting anything. This gives you a number of tactical advantages:

1) If the council decides not to contest, which happens in a significant proportion of cases, you win without needing to put any more time or effort into the matter.
2) If the council does contest, we can write an appeal with the benefit of seeing the council's evidence and legal submissions first.
3) If the council makes any procedural mistakes during the appeal process, these can be brought up in the appeal.

[sophie.turner]

Hi,

I have now been assigned an adjudicator for my appeal. I'm really dreading this.

Now in the process of preparing the appeal. Please can forum members have a look and comment if this is the correct approach. Thank you.


Appeal argument

1. Insufficient signage - signage only present on entering the residential zone, no white bays to indicate parking restrictions. Missed signage on entering due to traffic circumstance (mentioned previously), not reviewing video evidence
2. After first appeal, all communications in correspondence is to me (Owner of Car) when the incident and first appeal was made by declared Driver (Family member). Would this be a technical error of procedure, credible argument to make?
3. Not receiving postal communication of first appeal within 30 day notice period.
4. I have been to scene of incident, they have put up additional new signage since my incident, can I agrue that council kinda knew there was insufficient signage since they have put up additional signage?

5. PePiPoo Members mentioned some sore of technical error on the PCN - I don't understand what this could be. Can I use this in my appeal, if so, can someone point out what the issue was.


Thank you for any help in advance. I'm nervous as the council have put up lots of regulation documents up as evidence against me. I read quite a bit of it but don't understand it.

[PASTMYBEST]

Hi,

I have now been assigned an adjudicator for my appeal. I'm really dreading this.

Now in the process of preparing the appeal. Please can forum members have a look and comment if this is the correct approach. Thank you.


Appeal argument

1. Insufficient signage - signage only present on entering the residential zone, no white bays to indicate parking restrictions. Missed signage on entering due to traffic circumstance (mentioned previously), not reviewing video evidence
2. After first appeal, all communications in correspondence is to me (Owner of Car) when the incident and first appeal was made by declared Driver (Family member). Would this be a technical error of procedure, credible argument to make?
3. Not receiving postal communication of first appeal within 30 day notice period.
4. I have been to scene of incident, they have put up additional new signage since my incident, can I agrue that council kinda knew there was insufficient signage since they have put up additional signage?

5. PePiPoo Members mentioned some sore of technical error on the PCN - I don't understand what this could be. Can I use this in my appeal, if so, can someone point out what the issue was.


Thank you for any help in advance. I'm nervous as the council have put up lots of regulation documents up as evidence against me. I read quite a bit of it but don't understand it.

get some photos of the new signage

[sophie.turner]

Hi, yes I have photos of the new signage. i will add to mentioned case details above.


Are the above appeal arguments points valid for adjudication?

[cp8759]

Hi,

I have now been assigned an adjudicator for my appeal.

No you haven't, the system doesn't work like that. The council might have chosen to contest the case, but an adjudicator is not assigned until the day of the decision or thereabouts. More likely, the council has uploaded its evidence to the tribunal, in which case you need to download it and put it on here so we can see what we're dealing with. Without seeing the council's evidence, we have no idea whether any of your proposed grounds of appeal would stand up to scrutiny, as we're effectively flying blind.

[sophie.turner]

Sure Thanks. I have uploaded Council evidence below

Album on Imgur - imgur.com/a/8krAp0H

3 Case Status Report System Audit - https://i.imgur.com/l9Wr164.jpg
7.1 Challenge Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/yzLbMMa.jpg
7.2 Challenge Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/mmEFTfC.jpg
8 DVLA Return - https://i.imgur.com/3tPXQCa.jpg
9.1 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/CG5AmDr.jpg
9.2 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/R1WQdX6.jpg
9.3 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/R2UphYT.jpg
9.4 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/EC6wrQk.jpg
9.5 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/oZSOfc5.jpg
9.6 Replica NtO - https://i.imgur.com/zjkToFi.jpg
12.1 Additional Correspondance - https://i.imgur.com/rPra9nB.jpg
12.2 Additional Correspondance - https://i.imgur.com/iR8uzxa.jpg
13 Formal representation - https://i.imgur.com/U77GiOU.jpg
14.1 Notice of Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/7kg2tod.jpg
14.2 Notice of Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/2HbqADp.jpg
14.3 Notice of Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/puGcHnc.jpg
14.4 Notice of Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/EC6wrQk.jpg
14.5 Notice of Rejection - https://i.imgur.com/zb8Gto2.jpg
15.1 Other Evidence - https://i.imgur.com/oaIYTDF.jpg
15.2 Other Evidence - https://i.imgur.com/4O25ure.jpg
15.3 Other Evidence - https://i.imgur.com/kcn2mPU.jpg
16 TRO and Schdule - https://i.imgur.com/L9a5fUR.jpg There were 303 pages for this document, I only scanned the first page


I have uploaded my evidence on previous posts on the forum. 13 Was the formal representation email sent

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 13:45

[sophie.turner]

Would i been correct in arguing that my best appeal on procedural grounds would be that I did not receive the reply of appeal within 30 days. Did not review video evidence submitted. And council have put up additional signage since event?

[cp8759]

There is no requirement to send a reply within 30 days. What's the date of the hearing, or the date the case is due to come into the decision list? I'm about to pop out for a bit but I can draft an appeal for you later this evening.

Also you need to confirm two dates for us:

1) The date and time that the tribunal emailed you to confirm the appeal had been registered
2) The date that the council uploaded its evidence to the tribunal website, this should be confined on the website itself.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 14:18

[sophie.turner]

There is no requirement to send a reply within 30 days. What's the date of the hearing, or the date the case is due to come into the decision list? I'm about to pop out for a bit but I can draft an appeal for you later this evening.

Also you need to confirm two dates for us:

1) The date and time that the tribunal emailed you to confirm the appeal had been registered
2) The date that the council uploaded its evidence to the tribunal website, this should be confined on the website itself.

Thank you for your reply. The deadline for evidence submission is today. I would very much appreciate your help.

The case will be be reviewed tomorrow from the telephone helpline info. there has already been an adjudicator assigned to this case.

[cp8759]

There is no requirement to send a reply within 30 days. What's the date of the hearing, or the date the case is due to come into the decision list? I'm about to pop out for a bit but I can draft an appeal for you later this evening.

Also you need to confirm two dates for us:

1) The date and time that the tribunal emailed you to confirm the appeal had been registered
2) The date that the council uploaded its evidence to the tribunal website, this should be confined on the website itself.

Thank you for your reply. The deadline for evidence submission is today. I would very much appreciate your help.

So can you provide the two dates I've asked for please?

[sophie.turner]

There is no requirement to send a reply within 30 days. What's the date of the hearing, or the date the case is due to come into the decision list? I'm about to pop out for a bit but I can draft an appeal for you later this evening.

Also you need to confirm two dates for us:

1) The date and time that the tribunal emailed you to confirm the appeal had been registered
2) The date that the council uploaded its evidence to the tribunal website, this should be confined on the website itself.

Thank you for your reply. The deadline for evidence submission is today. I would very much appreciate your help.

So can you provide the two dates I've asked for please?

Hi, sorry just saw this.

1 - Case created on 10/10/2019
2 - Evidence added by Council on 29/10/2019

Please let me know if you need any other information

[cp8759]

Hi, yes I have photos of the new signage.

Where are the photos of the new signage?

[sophie.turner]

Hi, yes I have photos of the new signage.

Where are the photos of the new signage?

Hi cp8759,
Just saw your message. Please find the attached images below. Thank you

https://i.imgur.com/P8tSKV4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jwPF8xZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UKbY7FR.jpg

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 19:59

[cp8759]

For reasons that I don't have time to go into, I don't think the new photos help. If the council uploaded the evidence on 29 October, it really would have been helpful if you'd let us know at least one or two weeks ago, having to throw an appeal together at the last minute is really not ideal. This is the best I can do within the time constraint: http://bit.ly/2O3bwuO

Upload this to the tribunal tonight. Also, you cannot realistically deal with a telephone appeal because you do not have time to prepare. You have two realistic options:

1) Ask the tribunal to decide the case on the papers, without a hearing, or
2) Authorise me to attend the telephone hearing as your representative

As it stands, if the adjudicator were to query any of the technical points you simply wouldn't be equipped to deal with them and as I've said, you don't have time to prepare. If you ask for a hearing on the papers there's no guarantee that would work either, as the council might attend in which case a hearing would go ahead.

What time is the hearing scheduled for?

[cp8759]

The appeal must be in the car owner's name as the car owner is liable. If you're the driver you cannot attend a telephone hearing without getting prior authorisation from the owner.

To be honest you could just let the case be decided on the papers, I'm not sure there's any need for a hearing.

[sophie.turner]

The appeal must be in the car owner's name as the car owner is liable. If you're the driver you cannot attend a telephone hearing without getting prior authorisation from the owner.

To be honest you could just let the case be decided on the papers, I'm not sure there's any need for a hearing.

Please ignore personal message sent. Just read the details you sent. The car owner is Shashir Pobbathi. As it's a PDF could you please amend the name of appellant or I can make change if you can send word doc please.

Thank you

The appeal must be in the car owner's name as the car owner is liable. If you're the driver you cannot attend a telephone hearing without getting prior authorisation from the owner.

To be honest you could just let the case be decided on the papers, I'm not sure there's any need for a hearing.

Please ignore personal message sent. Just read the details you sent. The car owner is Shashir Pobbathi. As it's a PDF could you please amend the name of appellant or I can make change if you can send word doc please.

Thank you

Hi cp8759,

If you can send the word doc I can edit the appellant name. Thank you

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 21:14