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Police Witness Statement, False Corroboration
ben1974
post Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 11:35
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Hi

I have pled not guilty for allegedly doing 101mph on the M1.
I wasn't speeding and therefore know the police have no evidence to use against me.
I have received my date to appear in court which is 09 March 2018.
I have called the CPS to request evidence of the alleged offence and they said that I should contact the police to get the evidence.

Any advice on how to move forward would be great

Thanks
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post Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 11:35
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bearclaw
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:14
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QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
Anyone on here ever tried ‘lawful rebeliion’? You state that you do not recognise the jurisdiction of the court, based on the fact it stares in the Magna Carter that every freeman deserves a trial by jury?

http://lawfulrebellion.info/what-to-say-if...ged-into-court/


The only relevant bit in Magna Carta (1297) is that

NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right

Not much to say about juries in any form really... just judgement of your Peers, and even the 1297 Charter is a good sixty years before the Justices of the Peace Act.
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Logician
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 14:24
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:14) *
QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
Anyone on here ever tried ‘lawful rebeliion’? You state that you do not recognise the jurisdiction of the court, based on the fact it stares in the Magna Carter that every freeman deserves a trial by jury? http://lawfulrebellion.info/what-to-say-if...ged-into-court/
The only relevant bit in Magna Carta (1297) is that NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right Not much to say about juries in any form really... just judgement of your Peers, and even the 1297 Charter is a good sixty years before the Justices of the Peace Act.


What is "lawful judgment of his peers" if it is not trial by jury?



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NewJudge
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 15:39
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:14) *
The only relevant bit in Magna Carta (1297) is that....


I always understood it was 1215 when Magna Carta was signed. I was taught that King John had to sign it then because he had a lunch appointment at one o'clock. biggrin.gif
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Dwaynedouglas
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 15:56
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:14) *
QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
Anyone on here ever tried ‘lawful rebeliion’? You state that you do not recognise the jurisdiction of the court, based on the fact it stares in the Magna Carter that every freeman deserves a trial by jury?

http://lawfulrebellion.info/what-to-say-if...ged-into-court/


The only relevant bit in Magna Carta (1297) is that

NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right

Not much to say about juries in any form really... just judgement of your Peers, and even the 1297 Charter is a good sixty years before the Justices of the Peace Act.


A quick Google search sees this:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/801648/bo...gmaster-pinnock

Not quite the same situation, but using the same logic in a Magistrates court - your mileage may vary.


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bearclaw
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 16:26
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 14:24) *
QUOTE (bearclaw @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:14) *
QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
Anyone on here ever tried ‘lawful rebeliion’? You state that you do not recognise the jurisdiction of the court, based on the fact it stares in the Magna Carter that every freeman deserves a trial by jury? http://lawfulrebellion.info/what-to-say-if...ged-into-court/
The only relevant bit in Magna Carta (1297) is that NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right Not much to say about juries in any form really... just judgement of your Peers, and even the 1297 Charter is a good sixty years before the Justices of the Peace Act.


What is "lawful judgment of his peers" if it is not trial by jury?


A bench of magistrates?

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Logician
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:19
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Once magistrates had been invented, yes. Whether a District Judge (MC) qualifies is more doubtful, I suggest. But at the time of signing, the phrase must have referred to juries.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:25
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Judgment by peers OR law of the land? Sounds like no Jury is needed?


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cp8759
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:35
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QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
Anyone on here ever tried ‘lawful rebeliion’? You state that you do not recognise the jurisdiction of the court, based on the fact it stares in the Magna Carter that every freeman deserves a trial by jury?

http://lawfulrebellion.info/what-to-say-if...ged-into-court/

There is an interesting article here https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land, of particular interest are the "Freeman successes" and "Freeman failures" sections.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:46
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Most Freeman successes seem to amount to “educating the judge” just before they get sentenced.....

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:54


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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southpaw82
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:55
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Yes, this is now wholly off topic.


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ben1974
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:11
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Hi Again

just going over some of the variables in my upcoming case and:

It states in the ACPO code of practice for using a radar that:

''The road area covered by the radar should be in view of the operators. ''

The officer has stated that he used the radar on the south bridge (London gateway services)

My question is, 'If the officer was measuring my oncoming speed from the south bridge when I was approaching, how did he have a clear view of the road when I passed under the bridge heading towards the second set of speed markers''

--> You see you have to pass under the bridge that he is standing on, whilst he is taking a radar measurement of your speed. I could understand him being able to use a stopwatch to measure timeframe/speed, but not a radar.

Here is the north and south bridge on Google maps:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/London+...33;4d-0.2639984


Ben

This post has been edited by ben1974: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:12
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Jlc
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:16
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I didn't think radar (or laser) was used in the speed measurement here?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ben1974
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:20
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It was a PUMA average speed detection calculator, in pre-fed mode
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baggins1234
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:11) *
It states in the ACPO code of practice for using a radar that:

''The road area covered by the radar should be in view of the operators. ''


It was established many many posts ago that it wasn’t radar being used.

The officers statement confirmed that.
Where on earth did you find information that PUMA was a radar device?

To be honest, you’re clutching at straws. The wrong straws in this case.

The other issue you have to face is when you are asked what speed you were doing when you’re in court.

You’ve admitted on here that you were doing 85 and you’ve happily posted full details of your car reg number on the officers statement.

Be very careful.



This post has been edited by baggins1234: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:26
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ben1974
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:23
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Yeah I guess.
Does anyone know what a PUMA average speed detection calculator is?
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:27
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QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:23) *
Yeah I guess.
Does anyone know what a PUMA average speed detection calculator is?

Put in a distance, in this case the 0.175 between the two blocks on the road.

Press a button when you pass the first one.

Press a button when you pass the end one.

Speed = distance / time.

Police officers go on a course to learn about the button pressing so are presumed to be fairly competent at it. Certainly if challenged they will say the were trained to operate an approved device.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:30
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baggins1234
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:28
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QUOTE (ben1974 @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:23) *
Yeah I guess.
Does anyone know what a PUMA average speed detection calculator is?


Yes.

In pre fed mode it is a stop watch.

The officer has dialled in a prefed distanced to the device. As per his statement he starts the time when you crossed the first point and stopped it when you crossed the second point.

The PUMA already knew the distance, it now knows the time and calculates the average speed.
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peterguk
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 17:48
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:27) *
Police officers go on a course to learn about the button pressing so are presumed to be fairly competent at it. Certainly if challenged they will say the were trained to operate an approved device.


It'll be a short cross-examination then...


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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 17:57
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 17:48) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 16:27) *
Police officers go on a course to learn about the button pressing so are presumed to be fairly competent at it. Certainly if challenged they will say the were trained to operate an approved device.


It'll be a short cross-examination then...

Depends whether they are quizzed about ACPO guidelines about any other equipment. Where are the calibration lines. Where are the photos. Radar, Lidar, Lidl.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 18:07
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Just caught up on this. I haven't looked at the question since the "I was doing 85mph" reared its head. (Last I saw was "I wasn't speeding").

The biggest problem you may face if you persist with your Not Guilty plea is what you plan to say (assuming you give evidence) if you are asked what speed you contend you were doing? As I see it you would have three choices:

1. "I don't know" (not very helpful to your case)
2. 85mph (a slam dunk for a conviction)
3. 70mph or less (and lie under oath/affirmation).

Or do you plan not to give evidence but will rely instead on discrediting the officer sufficiently under cross-examination so that the court cannot be sure that you were speeding at all? You have to remember that the offence that the prosecution have to prove is that you were exceeding the speed limit, not that you were travelling at 101mph.

If you plan to change your plea you should do so asap so that your trial can be vacated. This will minimise any extra costs you might face. You will probably lose a small percentage of your guilty plea discount (perhaps reduced from 33% to 25%) but you should get away with just £85 costs. If you plan to opt for a Newton Hearing you should similarly inform the court. A hearing with evidence will still be necessary but normally Newton Hearings do not attract extra prosecution costs.
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