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Speeding Fine from Italian Police June 2017!
timnoise900
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 13:53
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Hi

I have just received a special delivery letter which turns out to be a fine in Euros for an alleged speeding offence in Italy in June 2017

First of all as this is almost a year ago (isnt there a time limit they must claim fines in?)

Do I need to pay this? what are the consequences of ignoring it, I am aware the law recently changed a month or so before the alleged offence

I am planning on ignoring it for now unless I get any better advice !

thanks in advance
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post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 13:53
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timnoise900
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 14:07
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QUOTE (timnoise900 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 13:53) *
Hi

I have just received a special delivery letter which turns out to be a fine in Euros for an alleged speeding offence in Italy in June 2017

First of all as this is almost a year ago (isnt there a time limit they must claim fines in?)

Do I need to pay this? what are the consequences of ignoring it, I am aware the law recently changed a month or so before the alleged offence

I am planning on ignoring it for now unless I get any better advice !

thanks in advance




81.3 KPH in a 70 KPH limit

46.10 euros if paid in 5 days
58.40 if paid in 60 days
i101.90 euros if ignored


or in English 50.517mph in a 43.96 mph limit (clearly the driver thought the speed limit was 50 and was driving at that speed)

This post has been edited by timnoise900: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 14:10
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 16:54
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Seems pretty cheap for a speeding fine...

Your car, or hire car?

Did you sign for the letter?

Who was driving?

The process will be governed by Italian law, and there is currently very little the Italian authorities can do to enforce a fine on a foreign driver.

So, the mandatory monetary consequences are usually minimal, but some people prefer to pay, so they can still go to heaven (I think).

--Churchmouse
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timnoise900
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:09
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our car, I may have been driving smile.gif

European law says the car owner is the one who gets fined

It seems they changed the law in 2017 so EU countries can now fine foreign drivers and cooperate with the DVLA. Apprently if unpaid they instruct UK debt collectors to collect the debt , which is unfortunate for them as I have already revoked implied access to my home to everyone except emergency services and the postman smile.gif
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southpaw82
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:33
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QUOTE (timnoise900 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:09) *
I have already revoked implied access to my home to everyone except emergency services and the postman smile.gif


At the risk of going off topic, so what?


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paulajayne
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE (timnoise900 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:09) *
I have already revoked implied access to my home to everyone except emergency services and the postman smile.gif



FOTL ???
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Logician
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:53
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Mostly FOTL nonsense, debt collectors have no legal powers anyway, bailiffs acting on behalf of a UK court do, and have been advised to take no notice of such signs.


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The Rookie
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 05:13
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Besides the debt collectors can only send letters and the postman can still deliver them.

FOTL BS though I’m afraid.


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timnoise900
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 09:23
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just means debt collectors cant visit your door only court ballifs which are different

Had to do this a resolve call were doing uninvited door step visits, they arent any more smile.gif
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 10:15
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QUOTE (timnoise900 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 22:09) *
our car, I may have been driving smile.gif

European law says the car owner is the one who gets fined

It seems they changed the law in 2017 so EU countries can now fine foreign drivers and cooperate with the DVLA. Apprently if unpaid they instruct UK debt collectors to collect the debt , which is unfortunate for them as I have already revoked implied access to my home to everyone except emergency services and the postman smile.gif

Again: Did you (or someone else) sign for the letter?

There is no "European law" on speeding tickets. Some European countries do indeed hold the registered owner/keeper liable for paying traffic tickets; the remainder do not. My understanding is that Italy falls into the latter category. It is also my understanding that, under Italian law, the government must establish that the notice they sent was received by the recipient. They do this by using a Poste Italiane registered/signed for delivery method. This works well in Italy, but UK posties do not always obtain the signature required and send the evidence back to the sender. In one case I am aware of the notice was simply delivered with the other post.

The EU law you are thinking of allows the cross-border sharing of registered keeper information. Presumably, that is how the Italian authorities have managed to contact you. However, the prosecution of traffic offences is not significantly different than it was before 2017. Even with the identity and contact details of the foreign vehicle's owner/keeper their options are limited. And if the Italian authorities fail to follow the detailed Italian procedures (such as obtaining proof of delivery), any further prosecution efforts would be futile, regardless if whether they had obtained your details or not.

As you have already been told, UK debt collectors have no power to do anything in the UK except send letters, texts and call you (repeatedly) to ask you to pay the "debt". So the only action you would need to be concerned about in relation to this would be bailiff enforcement of a UK court order, and you are very, very far away from that.

--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 15:49
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 10:15) *
As you have already been told, UK debt collectors have no power to do anything in the UK except send letters, texts and call you (repeatedly) to ask you to pay the "debt". So the only action you would need to be concerned about in relation to this would be bailiff enforcement of a UK court order, and you are very, very far away from that.

--Churchmouse


The OP is probably referring to the Cross Border Enforcement Directive which came into force in May last year and to which the UK is a party. There are eight offences covered including speeding.

For a French penalty it may be unwise to return to France if payment requests are ignored. All French penalties are issued from one source by a specialised team who now have access to DVLA. Failure to pay will propably result in a ghost record being kept on the vehicle registration and a subsequent visit, by the same registered owner, could result in a demand to pay the hugely increased penalty, Seizing the vehicle whilst cash is obtained is a standard, and effective, practice by the gendarmerie.

All countries party to the Directive have the right to pursue the penalties so there may be more occurring if the foreign authorities get organised.

Of course, if the offence occurred and is admitted then paying up may be the easiest solution 'cos minor speeding is relatively cheap in France at €45 and no points. wink.gif
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:56
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The CBED doesn't really do much on the "enforcement" side except make that somewhat more possible, due to the exchange of owner/keeper information. But Italy is not France, and the reports I've read say that Italy (like the UK and Germany) prosecute drivers, not owners/keepers. In the UK we have s.172 to compel the identification of the driver, but I don't know if Italy has such a mechanism, or how it would work in relation to a foreign owner/keeper/driver. Perhaps we shall learn more from the OP one day.

--Churchmouse
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The Rookie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 05:28
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:49) *
Failure to pay will propably result in a ghost record being kept on the vehicle registration and a subsequent visit, by the same registered keeper, could result in a demand to pay the hugely increased penalty, Seizing the vehicle whilst cash is obtained is a standard, and effective, practice by the gendarmerie.

CFY

In addition of course it would only apply to the same reg number unless the driving of a different reg number was bad enough to attract close attention.


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baroudeur
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 15:00
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:56) *
The CBED doesn't really do much on the "enforcement" side except make that somewhat more possible, due to the exchange of owner/keeper information. But Italy is not France, and the reports I've read say that Italy (like the UK and Germany) prosecute drivers, not owners/keepers. In the UK we have s.172 to compel the identification of the driver, but I don't know if Italy has such a mechanism, or how it would work in relation to a foreign owner/keeper/driver. Perhaps we shall learn more from the OP one day.

--Churchmouse


Surely the RK has the opportunity to name the driver in Italy as there must be a system in operation to cover cars owned by companies and those driven by other than the RK?. Certainly, the French system does as the penalty notice includes the opportunity to name a driver and failing to do so automatically results in the RK being responsible for the penalty.
The French NSL on single carriageway roads is being reduced from 90kph to 80kph in July and there will probably be a purge on speeding holidaymakers who will receive a postal penalty after they have returned home.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:45
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:56) *
The CBED doesn't really do much on the "enforcement" side except make that somewhat more possible, due to the exchange of owner/keeper information. But Italy is not France, and the reports I've read say that Italy (like the UK and Germany) prosecute drivers, not owners/keepers. In the UK we have s.172 to compel the identification of the driver, but I don't know if Italy has such a mechanism, or how it would work in relation to a foreign owner/keeper/driver. Perhaps we shall learn more from the OP one day.

--Churchmouse


Surely the RK has the opportunity to name the driver in Italy as there must be a system in operation to cover cars owned by companies and those driven by other than the RK?. Certainly, the French system does as the penalty notice includes the opportunity to name a driver and failing to do so automatically results in the RK being responsible for the penalty.
The French NSL on single carriageway roads is being reduced from 90kph to 80kph in July and there will probably be a purge on speeding holidaymakers who will receive a postal penalty after they have returned home.

I don't know why you say "surely"? The keeper in the UK isn't "automatically" liable for traffic offences, so it really shouldn't be surprising that other countries have not followed the French approach, either. Holding only the driver liable (like the UK) means there must be some mechanism for identifying that person. As I've mentioned before, I've heard that it is mandatory for an Italian to accept delivery of official documents delivered to their residence. If that's the case, then if they made the penalty for not accepting service the equivalent of 6 points and a big fine, they'd have the same sort of "incentive" our system provides...

--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:22
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:45) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:56) *
The CBED doesn't really do much on the "enforcement" side except make that somewhat more possible, due to the exchange of owner/keeper information. But Italy is not France, and the reports I've read say that Italy (like the UK and Germany) prosecute drivers, not owners/keepers. In the UK we have s.172 to compel the identification of the driver, but I don't know if Italy has such a mechanism, or how it would work in relation to a foreign owner/keeper/driver. Perhaps we shall learn more from the OP one day.

--Churchmouse


Surely the RK has the opportunity to name the driver in Italy as there must be a system in operation to cover cars owned by companies and those driven by other than the RK?. Certainly, the French system does as the penalty notice includes the opportunity to name a driver and failing to do so automatically results in the RK being responsible for the penalty.
The French NSL on single carriageway roads is being reduced from 90kph to 80kph in July and there will probably be a purge on speeding holidaymakers who will receive a postal penalty after they have returned home.

I don't know why you say "surely"? The keeper in the UK isn't "automatically" liable for traffic offences, so it really shouldn't be surprising that other countries have not followed the French approach, either. Holding only the driver liable (like the UK) means there must be some mechanism for identifying that person. As I've mentioned before, I've heard that it is mandatory for an Italian to accept delivery of official documents delivered to their residence. If that's the case, then if they made the penalty for not accepting service the equivalent of 6 points and a big fine, they'd have the same sort of "incentive" our system provides...

--Churchmouse


"Surely" introduced a question hence the question mark! To re-phrase it - does the Italian system allow/require a driver to be named? It's probable that such exists in some form in most European countries.







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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:36
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The bad news is that Italian authorities create ghost licences and will ban you on their own terms (either 6 months, a year or two years) if you get to zero points, if you're planning on going back.

The good news is that this is Italy where everyone has a Deli Alli-like field of gravity on their piede destro go has a fairly generous points system. You start with twenty, and gain two bonus points up to 30 for every two years of good behaviour.

You lose two points for every speeding offence <40kmh over speed limit, and ten points for >40kmh.

The police are also still fond of giving b*llockings rather than tickets. So it is almost impossible to lose your licence, which explains why Italians drive their cars as fast as they can physically go.

If you go back to Italy in the same reg car there is a small chance they may collar you for the fine. Otherwise you are in the clear.
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 17:24
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:22) *
"Surely" introduced a question hence the question mark! To re-phrase it - does the Italian system allow/require a driver to be named? It's probable that such exists in some form in most European countries.

The question is whether there is a real opportunity to do so or not. From personal experience, such an opportunity is given to car rental firms, and in the documents sent to hirers of vehicles (who have been so identified by a car rental firms) there is a mention of an opportunity to shift liability. But in my experience it is not given to vehicle hirers (who are not necessarily drivers, obviously). There is an appeal procedure, two of them, actually:

1. Appeal to Prefect - The appeal can be presented to the Comando di Polizia Metropolitana by registered letter with return receipt. If the relevant Authority certifies the offence by overruling the objection, the offender will have to pay a double amount (art. 203-204 Highway Code).

2. Appeal to Justice of Peace - By registered letter with return receipt (art. 204 Highway Code). It has to be addressed to the Justice's office and lodged within the time prescribed by law (art. 204-bis Cds, art 7 D.lgs 150/2011). According to art. 10 DPR 30/05/2002 n.115, as modified by art. 2,c.212,b,n.2 L.23/12/2009 n.191, appeal to the Justice of the Peace involves the payment of fixed costs for this procedure, whose amount is indicated by art. 13-30 DPR n.115/2002.

I understand that the "Prefect" appeal is like asking the police if they really want to fine you. Not surprisingly, they usually say yes (and now the original fine is doubled, thanks), so whilst they might allow an appeal, they might not (and seem rather incentivised to reject appeals). I understand that the "Justice of the Peace" appeal is more of a judicial process (and that the fee is around €40), but it is doubtful it can be conducted in English, and some sources suggest that it is necessary to engage an Italian lawyer.

Neither of these options are particularly "appealing" to me, and neither offer any guarantee that liability will be shifted to the driver. Guilty until proven innocent--enabling automated traffic enforcement everywhere!

--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:35
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Italian legislation permits serving a penalty notice up to 360 days after the event so no help there.

Appealing is rife with difficulty because of language and documentation required.

Leaving pay up or ignore as the OP's choice.
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