Car towed, Newham council, PCN Contravention code 16 |
Car towed, Newham council, PCN Contravention code 16 |
Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 13:26
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
Hi all, I would be very grateful for some assistance regarding the incident of my car being towed yesterday morning by Newham council.
I visited a resident in Newham borough, to attend a training course with her. The resident gave me an all day visitor permit (see photo) to allow me to park on one of the roads (Ruscoe Road: https://goo.gl/maps/GeQxgR4WEpG2 ) facing south on the left, towards to Canning Town Tube station so we could travel to the course together. As I arrived during the early hours of the morning (6.40am) it was still fairly dark, but it had also snowed that morning and the sign on the side of the road that I had parked my car was covered in snow, the sign on the opposite side was visible though (due to direction of snow fall presumably), and I could see it they permitted me to park my vehicle in one of the resident bays (with a valid permit). I filled in the visitor permit and parked in the space available, and ensured it was visible in the windscreen. There were no road markings in the bay I had parked in to show it was different from any other bay and arrived back that evening to find my car missing. It was at this point I realised I had parked my car in a "car club" bay, as the snow had melted from the sign, and realised my car had been towed by the council. Now this was a genuine mistake, and I was gutted to have to pay £265 (£200 removal fee, £65 PCN) to get my car back, money I cannot afford as I'm currently on maternity leave. (1) Do you think I have a case? I have attached the relevant paper work below, I cannot access any images as the PCN has been paid, in order to release the car. (2) Could you help with wording to challenge the PCN and recover both the tow and PCN cost? I would be very grateful for your advice, thank you in advance for providing your support and advice. PCN: https://ibb.co/WyBmfLf https://ibb.co/3s17Hdb Parking permit: https://ibb.co/TRrXQhy https://ibb.co/Kx66HNP Vehicle release: https://ibb.co/0DPsMSW Representation Document: https://ibb.co/tXnX7Lj https://ibb.co/NNqtbSk https://ibb.co/C5ZB9pk Example of the parking sign: https://ibb.co/WFFvDH5 Evidence of event and confirmation of adverse weather conditions from event https://ibb.co/6JbP9L6 https://ibb.co/Lv9wLmh Witness statement: https://ibb.co/pLJP8Cs Unfortunately I do not have the Oyster card journey as I paid via contactless This post has been edited by sktn: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 14:15 |
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Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 13:26
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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 22:44
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
And we have no clue until the photos are posted. The OP has provided extra evidence including a witness statement, suggesting that the resident of the road concerned could obtain a photo this week. Do you just suggest one of the same sign in daylight to assess how high up it was and could the OP have reasonably been expected to clear the sign? Or are you hoping for contemporaneous photos of snow at the same time? The OP doesn't have an oyster statement however probably could find the relevant line in the bank statement. I think all the evidence checks out in terms of the time line and there is another witness of the snow. |
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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 22:54
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,073 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
What I'm expecting is the photos taken by the CEO who issued the PCN.
It's premature to consider what these might lead to. But without them, the OP's evidence as regards a defence is pretty thin. |
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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 22:57
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
What I'm expecting is the photos taken by the CEO who issued the PCN. It's premature to consider what these might lead to. But without them, the OP's evidence as regards a defence is pretty thin. For the OP, can they be found online on the council website or does it require emailing them? |
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 11:30
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
Hi all,
Apologies for delay in getting this across, I had to await my colleague to take the photos. Please find attached some images of the signs, one of the car club and one of the normal parking. Daylight pictures of the parking space: https://ibb.co/H7ygWJD https://ibb.co/6HjjWLP https://ibb.co/GJB6CgL https://ibb.co/FWQ2zfs https://ibb.co/WkwHZxm I have also uploaded the contactless payment for travel on that date too from my bank card: https://ibb.co/ZHzYYD2 I am unable to get the images from the council website because the PCN was paid when I collected the car, and have contacted the council, however there isn't an option to talk to someone in parking, everything seems to be automated and directs me back to the website. I managed to speak to a lady - who said she had to "send an email to the back office for me, and ask them to post the images to me". She said she couldn't tell me how long it takes as she does not know. |
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 14:40
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If you don't get a reply in time you might need to make reps without the photos, do not risk missing the deadline.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:19
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
i was being facetious - a dangerous thing on social media. Yes we await the pics - particularly the layout here. Newham's towing is well beyond a joke and there must be scope for a complaint I would have thought. Thank you for taking the time to read through and respond to my post. I have uploaded the photographs of the signs, and am still awaiting the PCN images to be posted to me. I would be very grateful for any further input/comments. BW |
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 22:25
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
So the car club bay is contiguous with the pay bay. We certainly like to see better demarcation than this although snow is a factor. It comes down to the single post and sign and the snow, and also the proportionality of the tow but I have to say that we see people getting PCNs because their car club space are taken.
How tall are you? maybe you could have brushed snow off the sign or did it just not register as a post and sign at all. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 20:51 |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 20:47
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
So the car club bay is contiguous with the pay bay. We certainly like tis ee better demarcation than this although snow is a factor. It comes down to the single post and sign and the snow, and also the proportionality of the tow but I have to say that we see people getting PCNs because their car club space are taken. How tall are you? maybe you could have brushed snow off the sign or did it just not register as a post and sign at all. Thank you for responding. I'm 5ft.0 so even on tip toe I can't reach that sign, that said, it did not occur to me to do that, as I could see the signs on the other side of the road and thought they were all the same. The box didn't look that different to me at the time either (bearing in mind it was snowing and fairly dark when I arrived and parked up, and street lighting was poor). Do you feel it is worth challenging the tow and PCN? if so, I would be grateful for some advice with regards to wording. BW |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 21:13
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Thank you for responding. I'm 5ft.0 so even on tip toe I can't reach that sign, that said, it did not occur to me to do that, as I could see the signs on the other side of the road and thought they were all the same. The box didn't look that different to me at the time either (bearing in mind it was snowing and fairly dark when I arrived and parked up, and street lighting was poor). Arrgh no not the sign opposite! Is this a sign in an adjoining bay- it's large and much more obvious in bad weather than the small club car sign. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 21:14 |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 21:30
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
Thank you for responding. I'm 5ft.0 so even on tip toe I can't reach that sign, that said, it did not occur to me to do that, as I could see the signs on the other side of the road and thought they were all the same. The box didn't look that different to me at the time either (bearing in mind it was snowing and fairly dark when I arrived and parked up, and street lighting was poor). Arrgh no not the sign opposite! Is this a sign in an adjoining bay- it's large and much more obvious in bad weather than the small club car sign. Yes this is the sign in the adjoining bay - I didn't take a picture of the signs on the opposite side of the road, as all the other signs are the same as this one, besides the little car club sign. |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 23:25
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,073 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
the sign on the opposite side was visible though (due to direction of snow fall presumably), and I could see it they permitted me to park my vehicle in one of the resident bays (with a valid permit). I filled in the visitor permit and parked in the space available, and ensured it was visible in the windscreen.
Then you should have parked on that side. Your story is? I only took account of the sign on the opposite side of the road. But why? Where you parked could have been for goods vehicles only for all you know. You also posted: There were no road markings in the bay I had parked in to show it was different from any other bay. So every bay could have been a goods vehicle bay? Or nothing to show it was different from the bay on the opposite side of the road? Or different from another sign on your side, which might be OK if you'd looked at it. Pl understand, I'm not being difficult for the sake of it, I'm trying to analyse what you've posted..and it doesn't amount to much of a defence IMO. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 10:12
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
the sign on the opposite side was visible though (due to direction of snow fall presumably), and I could see it they permitted me to park my vehicle in one of the resident bays (with a valid permit). I filled in the visitor permit and parked in the space available, and ensured it was visible in the windscreen. Then you should have parked on that side. Your story is? I only took account of the sign on the opposite side of the road. But why? Where you parked could have been for goods vehicles only for all you know. You also posted: There were no road markings in the bay I had parked in to show it was different from any other bay. So every bay could have been a goods vehicle bay? Or nothing to show it was different from the bay on the opposite side of the road? Or different from another sign on your side, which might be OK if you'd looked at it. Pl understand, I'm not being difficult for the sake of it, I'm trying to analyse what you've posted..and it doesn't amount to much of a defence IMO. Hi, Thank you for responding to the message, I appreciate your time. There were no spaces available on that side of the road, and you are right, it could have been for goods vehicles, however the road was a normal residential road, and I assumed that all the bays were the same, this was a genuine mistake. further up the road when I was driving down, the signs were all the same, as I was still on the same stretch of road, I assumed that all the bays were the same. As I said, I've made a genuine mistake, there was snow, on the signs where there were available bays, rather than parking a mile up the road and walking down to the station, I parked in the nearest available bay, placed my visitor permit, not realising it was a car club bay. I arrived back to find my car had been missing. I'm after advice as to whether it would be worth challenging the tow and PCN based on the fact that my sign were I was parked was covered, and it was reasonable for me to assume it was a normal bay. as I'm currently on maternity leave it would be handy to have £265, however if everyone thinks that I do not have a case, then I accept that also. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 10:42
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Once you make any reference to bays across the road you are finished.
What we have are I think three contiguous bays - in the middle is a car club bay where you parked although we have not seen council pics. From your pics there looks to be a large shared use bay sign very near to where you parked in the next bay which in the snowy conditions would have seemed to be the one that applied. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 19:16
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
The OP has nothing to lose in any case and there's two arguments as far as I can see, plus mitigation. I drafted the following, which others are invited to modify.
Ground 1 "The vehicle had not been permitted to remain at rest in a civil enforcement area in which a penalty charge was payable." 1. I parked the vehicle at 06:55_ on 1st February 2019, because I had arranged to meet ___, my colleague, in order to travel together by public transport to ___. The witness, __, has helpfully provided a witness statement (see appendix _). 2. At the time I parked, the closest sign to where I parked was covered in snow and unreadable. In addition, it was impossible to distinguish any road markings from the snow. I believed that I could park anywhere on the road providing I displayed a visitor permit. I now understand this to be wrong and that the sign covered in snow indicated that where I parked was a car club bay. I displayed a visitor permit (see appendix _). 3. I do not have any photographs of the sign covered in snow or the road. However, please see appendices _ and _ which show the general weather condition in London at the time, as corroborating evidence of the adverse weather condition, in addition to the witness statement in appendix _. 4. My colleague and I travelled by London Underground to an event in central London (see appendix _) and arrived on time at __. [Possible Canning Town station time stamp]. We did not return until ___. 5. Over 3 hours after I parked my vehicle, the snow on the sign in question had melted and the PCN was issued. 6. In order for a parking contravention to be proven for the "car club" bay, the restriction must be clearly signed. There is a question of whether I as the driver had a duty to clear snow on the relevant sign. I submit that the duty depends on whether it is reasonable and just to impute this duty in the circumstances of the case. 7. In my case, my height is ___, however the sign was around _ above the pavement. Moreover, I [am pregnant/was recently pregnant]. I would not have been able to reach the sign without climbing on my vehicle. In the circumstances, it would not have been safe or practical for me to have cleared the sign. It follows then, that the duty to keep the sign clear and visible can not be imputed to me. 8. As the relevant sign was not visible at that time I parked and no duty could be imputed onto me to remove the snow in the circumstances, it follows that the restriction was not clearly. Therefore the contravention did not occur and no penalty charge was payable. Ground 2 There are compelling reasons why the council, in the circumstances of the case, should reduce the charge 9. If, in the alternative, the council (or an adjudicator) hold that I did have a duty to remove snow from the sign, I submit that the following compelling reasons apply for reducing the charge: a) I am currently in maternity leave and as a result my monthly income is only ___. The charge would place a heavy burden on me and cause me and my dependent(s) to suffer excessively. b) I was genuinely unable to reach the sign remove the snow on the sign and unaware of the car club restriction. Ground 3 There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority 10. In deciding whether to tow a vehicle, the council must act in accordance with their own policy as well with the common law duty to act fairly. 11. In this case, the vehicle was towed within hours of the PCN being issued. However, the visitor permit would have made it clear that I would have returned and moved the vehicle by the end of the day. Moreover, in the Council's guidance, a car club bay is only priority level 3 out of 4, in line with parking on double yellow lines rather than more serious contraventions such as causing a health and safety hazard or outside a school. It is therefore excessive for the council to tow a vehicle on the same day that it is parked in a car club bay. 12. For these reasons, the premature towing of the vehicle was excessive as to amount to a procedure impropriety. Therefore, the tow charges should be refunded. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 20:20
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I've made a few adjustments which should hopefully be self-explanatory.
Ground 1 "The vehicle had not been permitted to remain at rest in a civil enforcement area in which a penalty charge was payable." 1. I parked the vehicle at 06:55_ on 1st February 2019, because I had arranged to meet ___, my colleague, in order to travel together by public transport to ___. The witness, __, has helpfully provided a witness statement (see appendix _). 2. At the time I parked, the closest sign to where I parked was covered in snow and unreadable. In addition, it was impossible to distinguish any road markings from the snow. I believed that I could park anywhere on the road providing I displayed a visitor permit. I now understand this to be wrong and that the sign covered in snow indicated that where I parked was a car club bay. I displayed a visitor permit (see appendix _). 3. I do not have any photographs of the sign covered in snow or the road. However, please see appendices _ and _ which show the general weather condition in London at the time, as corroborating evidence of the adverse weather condition, in addition to the witness statement in appendix _. 4. My colleague and I travelled by London Underground to an event in central London (see appendix _) and arrived on time at __. [Possible Canning Town station time stamp]. We did not return until ___. 5. Over 3 hours after I parked my vehicle, the snow on the sign in question had melted and the PCN was issued. 6. In order for a parking contravention to be proven for the "car club" bay, the restriction must be clearly signed. There is a question of whether I as the driver had a duty to clear snow on the relevant sign. I submit that there is no such duty. 8. In the alternative, if there is such a duty, its extent must depend on whether it is reasonable in the circumstances of the case to require a motorist to remove snow from the signage (taking into account the motorist's health & safety and the fact that motorists would not be expected to carry any equipment for this purpose). 9. In my case, my height is ___, however the sign was around _ above the pavement. Moreover, I [am pregnant/was recently pregnant]. I would not have been able to reach the sign without climbing on my vehicle. In the circumstances, it would not have been safe or practical for me to have cleared the sign. It follows then, that the duty to keep the sign clear and visible can not be imputed to me. 10. As the relevant sign was not visible at that time I parked and no duty could be imputed onto me to remove the snow in the circumstances, it follows that the restriction was not clearly conveyed. Therefore the contravention did not occur and no penalty charge was payable. Ground 2 There are compelling reasons why the council, in the circumstances of the case, should reduce the charge 9. If the council does not accept that the contravention did not occur, I submit that the following compelling reasons apply for waiving the towing fees: a) I am currently in maternity leave and as a result my monthly income is only ___. The charge would place a heavy burden on me and cause me and my dependent(s) to suffer excessively. b) I was genuinely unable to reach the sign remove the snow on the sign and unaware of the car club restriction. Ground 3 There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority 10. In deciding whether to tow a vehicle, the council must act in accordance with its own policy as well with the common law duty to act fairly. 11. In this case, the vehicle was towed within hours of the PCN being issued. However, the visitor permit would have made it clear that I would have returned and moved the vehicle by the end of the day. Moreover, in the Council's guidance, a car club bay is only priority level 3 out of 4, in line with parking on double yellow lines rather than more serious contraventions such as causing a health and safety hazard or outside a school. It is therefore excessive for the council to tow a vehicle on the same day that it is parked in a car club bay. 12. For these reasons, the premature towing of the vehicle was excessive as to amount to a procedure impropriety. Therefore, the tow charges should be refunded. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 20:39
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
I've made a few adjustments which should hopefully be self-explanatory. Cheers! What is the deadline for the OP? The document says ""We must receive them before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the data on which you were notified of your right to make representations.". However, shouldn't it follow deemed date of service meaning send on or before 1st Feb + 27-2=Tue 26th February? This being significant because otherwise guaranteed next day delivery on Wed 27th February would be an option? |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 20:47
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I've made a few adjustments which should hopefully be self-explanatory. What is the deadline for the OP? The document says ""We must receive them before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the data on which you were notified of your right to make representations.". However, shouldn't it follow deemed date of service meaning send on or before 1st Feb + 27-2=Tue 26th February? This being significant because otherwise guaranteed next day delivery on Wed 27th February would be an option? If the car was towed then deemed date of service is irrelevant, the 28 day period runs from the day they pick up the car from the pound. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 21:08
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
I've made a few adjustments which should hopefully be self-explanatory. What is the deadline for the OP? The document says ""We must receive them before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the data on which you were notified of your right to make representations.". However, shouldn't it follow deemed date of service meaning send on or before 1st Feb + 27-2=Tue 26th February? This being significant because otherwise guaranteed next day delivery on Wed 27th February would be an option? If the car was towed then deemed date of service is irrelevant, the 28 day period runs from the day they pick up the car from the pound. Sorry I meant service of the OP's representations onto the council by post. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 22:28
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,270 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Sorry I meant service of the OP's representations onto the council by post. 28th. Post 26th latest. -------------------- |
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Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:37
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,246 |
I've made a few adjustments which should hopefully be self-explanatory. Ground 1 "The vehicle had not been permitted to remain at rest in a civil enforcement area in which a penalty charge was payable." 1. I parked the vehicle at 06:55_ on 1st February 2019, because I had arranged to meet ___, my colleague, in order to travel together by public transport to ___. The witness, __, has helpfully provided a witness statement (see appendix _). 2. At the time I parked, the closest sign to where I parked was covered in snow and unreadable. In addition, it was impossible to distinguish any road markings from the snow. I believed that I could park anywhere on the road providing I displayed a visitor permit. I now understand this to be wrong and that the sign covered in snow indicated that where I parked was a car club bay. I displayed a visitor permit (see appendix _). 3. I do not have any photographs of the sign covered in snow or the road. However, please see appendices _ and _ which show the general weather condition in London at the time, as corroborating evidence of the adverse weather condition, in addition to the witness statement in appendix _. 4. My colleague and I travelled by London Underground to an event in central London (see appendix _) and arrived on time at __. [Possible Canning Town station time stamp]. We did not return until ___. 5. Over 3 hours after I parked my vehicle, the snow on the sign in question had melted and the PCN was issued. 6. In order for a parking contravention to be proven for the "car club" bay, the restriction must be clearly signed. There is a question of whether I as the driver had a duty to clear snow on the relevant sign. I submit that there is no such duty. 8. In the alternative, if there is such a duty, its extent must depend on whether it is reasonable in the circumstances of the case to require a motorist to remove snow from the signage (taking into account the motorist's health & safety and the fact that motorists would not be expected to carry any equipment for this purpose). 9. In my case, my height is ___, however the sign was around _ above the pavement. Moreover, I [am pregnant/was recently pregnant]. I would not have been able to reach the sign without climbing on my vehicle. In the circumstances, it would not have been safe or practical for me to have cleared the sign. It follows then, that the duty to keep the sign clear and visible can not be imputed to me. 10. As the relevant sign was not visible at that time I parked and no duty could be imputed onto me to remove the snow in the circumstances, it follows that the restriction was not clearly conveyed. Therefore the contravention did not occur and no penalty charge was payable. Ground 2 There are compelling reasons why the council, in the circumstances of the case, should reduce the charge 9. If the council does not accept that the contravention did not occur, I submit that the following compelling reasons apply for waiving the towing fees: a) I am currently in maternity leave and as a result my monthly income is only ___. The charge would place a heavy burden on me and cause me and my dependent(s) to suffer excessively. b) I was genuinely unable to reach the sign remove the snow on the sign and unaware of the car club restriction. Ground 3 There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority 10. In deciding whether to tow a vehicle, the council must act in accordance with its own policy as well with the common law duty to act fairly. 11. In this case, the vehicle was towed within hours of the PCN being issued. However, the visitor permit would have made it clear that I would have returned and moved the vehicle by the end of the day. Moreover, in the Council's guidance, a car club bay is only priority level 3 out of 4, in line with parking on double yellow lines rather than more serious contraventions such as causing a health and safety hazard or outside a school. It is therefore excessive for the council to tow a vehicle on the same day that it is parked in a car club bay. 12. For these reasons, the premature towing of the vehicle was excessive as to amount to a procedure impropriety. Therefore, the tow charges should be refunded. Hi All, thank you so much for your guidance, input and help in making representation. I have still not received the council photographs. Everything will be sent off guaranteed next day tomorrow morning, and will update the thread once I hear back from them. Thank you again for your help |
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