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big-G
post Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 04:17
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On Monday I was pulled apparently doing 80 in 50, and also apparent careless driving. Now while Ill admit I was speeding I no I wasnt doing 80! I drive a 52Reg Fiat Stilo. One of its features is it has a warning light which comes on the dash when you reach a certain speed (funnily enough I have it set to 80), and I no that light did not come on. Is there any way of having the cars onboard computer checked to see if the warning had gone off? Because my guess is that if I can prove it had not (and therefore that I was not doing 80) then the entire case would have to be dropped.
The situation was that I was pulled over by a police van by 2 policeofficers. They put me in the back of the van. They asked me the usual questions (do I no speed limit ect). I confirmed that I have 6 points already (been caught speeding twice before, but 3 points due to expire soon). One of the officers gave me an interview in back of van, which she recorded in her notebook and I signed. At no point was I given any reciept of the stop (are they meant to give me one?). The female officer that interviewed me was probably a probationer as the older male officer was telling her what to do. The male officer explained that it would be passed onto the cps and more than likely go to a magistrates court, where I will recieve 3 points for speeding and 1 extra point for every 10mph I was doing over speed limit, a total of 6 points, taking my total to 12points and therefore an automatic minimum ban for 6 months.
Also there was no speeding equipment in the van (or at least non used on me), so its 2 officers word against mine, although I no the word of 2 officers is enough, unless I can prove by checking the cars computer that at that time my speed did not reach 80.

So do I stand any chance of getting off, or at least keeping my licence (by time it goes to court it is likely that 3 of the points on my licence will have been on my licence for over 3 years, although I no it goes from the date of the offence). Also is there ever examples where people pulled and same thing happen, only for court summons never to come through (I no im pushing my luck on that one)?

NB just remembered that at one point while in van with officers the male officer asked me if it was a Vauxhall Astra I was driving (ok it was getting dark but was pulled over in a well lit area and my car was only bout 20metres in front of the van, if that). Are these interviews in back of van normally recorded, because if it was I may possibly be able to argue case of his judgement was impaired if he cant tell difference between an Astra and a Stilo, or maybe evn mistaken identity.

This post has been edited by big-G: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 04:46
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post Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 04:17
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Gaza
post Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 10:24
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QUOTE
On Monday I was pulled apparently doing 80 in 50, and also apparent careless driving. Now while Ill admit I was speeding I no [KNOW] I wasnt doing 80! I drive a 52Reg Fiat Stilo. One of its features is it has a warning light which comes on the dash when you reach a certain speed (funnily enough I have it set to 80), and I no [KNOW] that light did not come on. Is there any way of having the cars onboard computer checked to see if the warning had gone off? Because my guess is that if I can prove it had not (and therefore that I was not doing 80) then the entire case would have to be dropped.


I doubt very much if a Fiat Stilo has the capacity to store the exact time and date of activations (or not). You have admitted to speeding. The fact that two officers were of the opinion you were exceeding the speed limit is all that is required. There is no need for calibrated speedos or other fancy kit. The offense is exceeding the speed limit; technically they don't have to state a speed so even if you could prove you were were not doing 80 but 70, you can still be taken to court and convicted.

QUOTE
At no point was I given any reciept of the stop (are they meant to give me one?).


No they don't. Did you produce your license or any other ID? If not, were you given a producer?

QUOTE
The male officer explained that it would be passed onto the cps and more than likely go to a magistrates court, where I will recieve 3 points for speeding and 1 extra point for every 10mph I was doing over speed limit, a total of 6 points, taking my total to 12points and therefore an automatic minimum ban for 6 months.


Strictly speaking what he said was not accurate but it is a good guide. 30mph over the limit is likely to attract 6 points.

QUOTE
Also there was no speeding equipment in the van (or at least non used on me), so its 2 officers word against mine, although I no [KNOW] the word of 2 officers is enough, unless I can prove by checking the cars computer that at that time my speed did not reach 80.


As I said earlier, no equipment needed but I doubt you can prove anything especially as you have said you were speeding.

QUOTE
So do I stand any chance of getting off, or at least keeping my licence (by time it goes to court it is likely that 3 of the points on my licence will have been on my licence for over 3 years, although I no [KNOW] it goes from the date of the offence). Also is there ever examples where people pulled and same thing happen, only for court summons never to come through (I no im pushing my luck on that one)?


There are some cases of offense timing out but I would not reply on it happening. 12 points is an automatic 6 month ban unless you can claim exceptional hardship.

QUOTE
NB just remembered that at one point while in van with officers the male officer asked me if it was a Vauxhall Astra I was driving (ok it was getting dark but was pulled over in a well lit area and my car was only bout 20metres in front of the van, if that). Are these interviews in back of van normally recorded, because if it was I may possibly be able to argue case of his judgement was impaired if he cant tell difference between an Astra and a Stilo, or maybe evn mistaken identity.


You are really clutching at straws. From the rear a Stilo could be mistaken for an Astra. I doubt you would find any court willing to endorse your view of imparied judgement because a copper could not tell the difference between two types of car.
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spanner345
post Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 10:52
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QUOTE (Gaza @ Thu, 6 Nov 2008 - 10:24) *
Strictly speaking what he said was not accurate but it is a good guide. 30mph over the limit is likely to attract 6 points.




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big-G
post Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 00:00
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In reply to gaza I admit most of the post was clutching at straws, but anything is worth a try. By way I didnt admit at the time I was speeding, I just said I was unsure of my exact speed.
In the section pleading exceptional hardship, Ill give my case here and see if people would agree/disagree I have a case for exceptional hardship. I am a university student (studying electrical engineering 2nd year, with a view of teaching physics once I graduate). I live with my parents still (unfortunate at 23) and I live 15 miles away from Uni. To get to uni I would have to get a bus into my local town centre and then a metro to uni, meaning having to leave the house at a ridiculously early time to get to Uni. This on its own I am aware would not be enough to class as exceptional hardship. However In order to pay for Uni I have 2 part time jobs, one where I work during week afer uni (just a few hours a day mon-thurs), near where I live, which I would have to quit as I would not be able to get home in time, and another part time job in a pub where I work fri/sat night, which I would have to quit because I would not be able to afford the taxi fare. Losing these jobs would mean I couldnt pay to live while I am at uni and therefore may be forced to quit.
Is that likely to class as exceptional hardship or am I again clutching at straws?

Edit, have read elsewhere that magistrates dont seem to care if a ban will have effects on me, just on other people. The only other person it would effect is my girlfriend, as it would put a serious strain on our relationship (with us living 17miles apart and no decent public transport between our 2 houses), and I doubt a magistrate would care. Possibly also the fact that I'm wanting to become a physics teacher when I graduate in 1.5years time, a subject where many schools are lacking qualified physics teachers (another long shot), and loosing my licence will result in me not being able to afford to complete my degree. Also in my defence I have only owned my current car for a month, and it is much faster than my old car, resulting in me going faster than I realised. I could tell the mags I was unaware of my speed due to this. I will say I am genuinely sorry and ashamed, and any fine that I am given will effect me more than most, with me only working part time, plus the rise in my insurance will also punish me, and say I am willing to attend any speeding awareness courses. My Dad got caught speeding recently for 1st time in his 30+ years of driving, and took a speeding course. I will say he told me how usefull/helpfull this was and that I may be able to learn a lot from this couse myself.

By way the result I am hoping for is anything that prevents me from a 6month + ban that is normally associated with getting a total of 6 points.

This post has been edited by big-G: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 01:20
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southpaw82
post Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 01:32
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Since you already have 6 points for speeding I don't think the magistrates will be to impressed with you saying sorry - you obviously haven't learned your lesson. Equally, you apparently didn't listen to well when your dad told you about the speed awareness course - in any case that's not an option for the court.

Nothing you have said so far rises to the level of exceptional hardship, in my opinion.

You may be better off asking for a short ban in lieu of points.


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big-G
post Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 02:21
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 01:32) *
Since you already have 6 points for speeding I don't think the magistrates will be to impressed with you saying sorry - you obviously haven't learned your lesson. Equally, you apparently didn't listen to well when your dad told you about the speed awareness course - in any case that's not an option for the court.

Nothing you have said so far rises to the level of exceptional hardship, in my opinion.

You may be better off asking for a short ban in lieu of points.



My Dad actually said the course was a waste of time but though mentioning something positive about it may help, but if not then I wont mention it. I was hoping the fact that 3 of the points have nearly expired (3 years in January) may help (the other 3 points have untill July 09) in my favour. I do about 13000 miles a year, so I can say its been 2.5 years since I last sped, and this was a single lapse in concentration (if I sped regularly I'm sure I'd have been caught more considering I do 13k a year). I'd have though having to quit university in middle of my 2nd year, due to being unable to fund it, would class as exceptional hardship? And what sort of short term ban am I best going for (what is minimum I can expect?).

This post has been edited by big-G: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 02:22
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southpaw82
post Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 02:40
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Quitting university might well be hardship (and might even be exceptional hardship) but as you yourself have said there are other means of getting there. Just because you can not take the easy option and drive there does not mean that it becomes exceptional hardship. Also, there are (one assumes) alternate means of getting to your place of employment - bus, cycle, lifts etc.

The guidlines suggest considering a ban of 7 to 56 days - I would not give any figure to the bench but merely ask for a ban in lieu of points and explain that you could cope with finding alternate arrangements for (say) a month. Also point out that this will give you a taste of what losing your licence is like.


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big-G
post Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 10:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 7 Nov 2008 - 02:40) *
Quitting university might well be hardship (and might even be exceptional hardship) but as you yourself have said there are other means of getting there. Just because you can not take the easy option and drive there does not mean that it becomes exceptional hardship. Also, there are (one assumes) alternate means of getting to your place of employment - bus, cycle, lifts etc.

The guidlines suggest considering a ban of 7 to 56 days - I would not give any figure to the bench but merely ask for a ban in lieu of points and explain that you could cope with finding alternate arrangements for (say) a month. Also point out that this will give you a taste of what losing your licence is like.



Cheers for the advice. I could prob live with a month driving ban as I could probably suspend my employment for that length of time. Unfortunately without a car means I couldnt work as there is no way I could make it back from uni in time to work.
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big-G
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 06:02
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I was pulled a few weeks back (Mon 3rd Nov) and told I was doing 80 in a 50. The officer informed me that he did not use any speed gun or anything like that. I am not sure how he recorded my speed, as I know he was quite some distance behind me and must have had to accelerate to catch me (he didnt say anything like he had to do 90 to catch to me). The officer also added that I was swerving going round a corner (which I do not believe I was) so added careless driving as well, which he said the mags could up to dangerous driving.
1stly do most police vehicles have recording equipment attached to the front (so I can disprove the swerving and also maybe do some calculations to try and calculate my speed)?
Does a police van need to have its speedo callibrated daily (like a camera would)?
At 80 I get 6 points (and with my current 6 points that = 6month ban). At 70-75 the mags guide says 4-6 points. If I can argue the speed down how many points am I likely to recieve? (anything less than 6 and other than higher insurance i'm still ok to drive).
I've seen that instead of points a 7-56day ban can be given. Is there any way I can get this (I can struggle with no car for up to 2 months, but 6 months would prob mean loss of job/ maybe have to leave uni)?
Any chance of the whole case just not materialising, I'm yet to recieve anything in writing, although was given a verbal NIP, so I know they have 6 months (a long shot this one, even more so than the rest)?

By way it was Northumbria police (or possibly Durham as vey close to border). Anyone know how likely I am going to waite to recieve my mags summons?
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arthurc
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 09:58
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It's possible that when the officer got back to the station and reviewed the evidence he recommended no further action be taken. It's possible he just pulled you over and thought he'd give you a ticking off and you'll hear no more about it.

Finally, you might receive a summons. The police have six months in which to lay evidence at the courts for a summons to be issued, so it can take up to six months possibly more for you to receive anything.

When/If you recieve a summons it will inform you what the charge is. Different areas send out different supporting documentation with a summons. It would be normal to see a witness statement from the officer who cautioned you and that will tell you what method he used to measure your speed.

If you do get a summons, then post the information (obviously nothing that could identify you) on the forum and the members will give you the feedback and advice.

If there were two officers in the police van - they don't need any equipment to nick you for speeding, their word is sufficient. If it was only one officer, then he needs something else to corroborate his testimony. A calibrated speedo is the easiest and most obvious. Most police vehicles have a calibrated speedo (even motorcycles). Not all police vehicles are fitted with technology to record/measure vehicle speeds.

If the summons includes a charge for careless driving it should also identify what they thought was careless.





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southpaw82
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 10:09
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QUOTE (arthurc @ Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 09:58) *
Most police vehicles have a calibrated speedo (even motorcycles).


No, they don't. Calibrated speedos are generally only fitted to traffic units. Most general duty vehicles (such as a police van) will not have a calibrated speedo. Nevertheless, a calibrated speedo is not required to corroborate an opinion of (grossly) excessive speed - an ordinary speedo can do this.


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arthurc
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 10:20
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Obviously in Northern Ireland they do ...

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/safetycame...on_measures.htm

but who wants to spend all day trawling police sites to find out what percentage of cars have calibrated speedos...

The important point you made being that it isn't necessary.

This post has been edited by arthurc: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 10:21
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southpaw82
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 11:04
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He he - brought to mind a Land Rover trying to pace a car doing a ton wink.gif



I'd ba amazed if the information on the PSNI website is accurate - I've never known a force to fit calibrated speedos to most of it's (non-traffic) fleet.


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arthurc
post Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 11:07
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I agree and tbh my comment was intended to relate to traffic vehicles... but who knows what the mindset of the NI Police Force is. Having spent some time there I can't even understand their accent, let alone their ethos.

I know it's off topic but it amazes me that speedos are still checked using stopwatches (which require claibration every two years). You'd think we would have come up with a better technology solution than the reflexes in Plod's thumb.

This post has been edited by arthurc: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 - 11:09
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big-G
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 01:14
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On 03/11/2009 I was pulled over by 2 policeman for allegedly doing 80 in a 50 (was not going that fast but what the cop claimed) by either Northumbria or Durham police (right on the border). I was cautioned for speeding and careless driving. They interviewed me in the police van and I signed a copy of the interview (but recieved no reciept myself). I was told they would pass it onto the cps who have 6 months to build a case, where I would likely recieve 6 points and a fine. As I already had 6 points at the time (now down to 3 and in a few weeks will have a clean licence) this would also lead to a ban of at least 6 months. It has now been nearly 7 months, am I likely to have got off with it or can I still expect to hear back from them?

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andy_foster
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 03:37
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You've started a duplicate thread!

They had 6 months from the date of the alleged offence to lay an information (apply for a summons).
The summons is often served 3-4 weeks after the information is laid.

In speed camera cases (as opposed to being pulled by the BiB) the information is usually laid just before the deadline.
In cases where the accused was pulled at the time, this is often but not always done far sooner.



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big-G
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 08:26
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 29 May 2009 - 04:37) *
You've started a duplicate thread!

They had 6 months from the date of the alleged offence to lay an information (apply for a summons).
The summons is often served 3-4 weeks after the information is laid.

In speed camera cases (as opposed to being pulled by the BiB) the information is usually laid just before the deadline.
In cases where the accused was pulled at the time, this is often but not always done far sooner.


Sorry for not including it in my origonal threat, just thought with it being over 6 months ago I would start a new one. So from the sound of the last bit it may appear the cop hasn't bothered doing paper work, possibly only pulled me to scare me (which it has)? I have read cases on here where info was laid to the courts within 6 months and it then took them a few months to print and send a letter. Are these exremely rare?
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andy_foster
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 10:05
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Except in Humberside when they lay he information late and simply lie about when it was laid (allegedly...)


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big-G
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 15:13
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 29 May 2009 - 11:05) *
Except in Humberside when they lay he information late and simply lie about when it was laid (allegedly...)



Have you heard any such similiar stories about Northumbria (or possibly Durham) Police?
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sarahg1969
post Fri, 29 May 2009 - 22:26
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I'd ring the court and ask. If they say no, get the name of the person you've spoken to and fax them a letter confirming what you were told. Just in case they do try it on.
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