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PCN 27 - Sutton/Carshalton parked in a special enforcement area, dropped curb
Parking Idiot
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 10:40
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hi, I've been issued a ticket for parking alongside the dropping bit of a dropped curb. In Carshalton Surrey.

Any point in challenging it ? Or just pay.

Seems a bit unfair as there is no obstruction as far as I can tell.

Photographic evidence and PCN below. Thanks in advance for any help.








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post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 10:40
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stamfordman
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:04
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You are a bit over but let's see what this dropped kerb is. Mill Lane is a long road so give us a Google Street View of the exact location.
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Parking Idiot
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:21
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It's 2 Mill Lane if that helps. If you look at GSV it is a building with lots of scaffolding around it.

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stamfordman
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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OK here. Not blocking the driveway - a frivolous PCN. Definite challenge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.367566,-0.1...3312!8i6656

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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:45
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In order that a contravention occurs, the DK has to be lowered for one of the statutory reasons set out in s86 of TMA 2004.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

Do one of the exemptions apply?.

If not you can try an argument that the length of the DK extends beyond the limit of any viable statutory reason so the small part you contravened was not covered by the legislation.

This i cannot see a council accepting, an adjudicator may but at risk of the full penalty.

I am not aware of this argument being put before, but we have successfully argued that box junctions extending beyond the limit of the junction are not valid and it is effectively the same argument


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Parking Idiot
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:52
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OK so how about this:

Dear x,

Thank you for the photographic evidence provided in relation to PCNxxx.

The photographic evidence clearly shows the car not in front of the dropped
section of curb, and is not causing any obstruction to cars or pedestrians.

Therefore I would urge you to cancel this PCN, as it is frivolous.

BR,

x


When I sent a message to get the photo evidence they counted that as representation,
so I lose the discount if I write again.

Best to wait for NTO then ?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:45) *
In order that a contravention occurs, the DK has to be lowered for one of the statutory reasons set out in s86 of TMA 2004.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

Do one of the exemptions apply?.

If not you can try an argument that the length of the DK extends beyond the limit of any viable statutory reason so the small part you contravened was not covered by the legislation.

This i cannot see a council accepting, an adjudicator may but at risk of the full penalty.

I am not aware of this argument being put before, but we have successfully argued that box junctions extending beyond the limit of the junction are not valid and it is effectively the same argument


Does this help at all ? It was in the initial response I got back:

There are two types of dropped kerbs; one is for access to and from a property,
the other is for the use of pedestrians. On this occasion, the vehicle was parked
adjacent to a dropped kerb that was lowered to facilitate access to a property.

The Penalty is enforced under Section 14 (4) of the London Local Authorities and
Transport for London Act 2003 and the contravention is committed if a vehicle is
parked across a dropped footway on a street or Public Highway. Signs and road
marking are not required at these locations because drivers should be aware of
their responsibility to park lawfully as set out in the Highway Code. Furthermore,
on this occasion a public request was made for enforcement.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:53
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QUOTE (Parking Idiot @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:47) *
OK so how about this:

Dear x,

Thank you for the photographic evidence provided in relation to PCNxxx.

The photographic evidence clearly shows the car not in front of the dropped
section of curb, and is not causing any obstruction to cars or pedestrians.

Therefore I would urge you to cancel this PCN, as it is frivolous.

BR,

x


When I sent a message to get the photo evidence they counted that as representation,
so I lose the discount if I write again.

Best to wait for NTO then ?


no The evidence shows the rear wheel halfwaty over the sloping and DK so firtst bit is wrong And do not tell them it is frivolous just explain that parkrd thus you could not cause obstruction and ask that they exercise discretion


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stamfordman
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 11:54
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QUOTE (Parking Idiot @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:52) *
When I sent a message to get the photo evidence they counted that as representation,
so I lose the discount if I write again.



Post what they sent to you.


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Parking Idiot
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:01
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:54) *
QUOTE (Parking Idiot @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:52) *
When I sent a message to get the photo evidence they counted that as representation,
so I lose the discount if I write again.



Post what they sent to you.



Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered your circumstances, however I regret for the
reasons stated below we are unable to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
A Penalty was issued to the vehicle because it was parked adjacent to a dropped
kerb.

There are two types of dropped kerbs; one is for access to and from a property,
the other is for the use of pedestrians. On this occasion, the vehicle was parked
adjacent to a dropped kerb that was lowered to facilitate access to a property.

The Penalty is enforced under Section 14 (4) of the London Local Authorities and
Transport for London Act 2003 and the contravention is committed if a vehicle is
parked across a dropped footway on a street or Public Highway. Signs and road
marking are not required at these locations because drivers should be aware of
their responsibility to park lawfully as set out in the Highway Code. Furthermore,
on this occasion a public request was made for enforcement.
You can view photographic evidence of your Penalty Charge Notice online at:
https://parking.sutton.gov.uk/parking/.

You have these choices:

• You can pay the discount charge of £55.00 if your payment reaches us within 14
days of the date of this letter. PLEASE NOTE: if you write back in to the council
again or before a Notice to Owner is served, the discounted period will not be
placed on hold or re-offered.
• You can pay £110.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN. The vehicle’s registered keeper will
automatically receive a Notice to Owner (NtO) if the PCN has not been paid within
28 days of being issued. The NtO will allow the registered keeper of the vehicle to
either formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £110.00 within 28 days from the
date of that notice. If the formal representation is rejected by the Council, a Notice
of rejection will be served and the registered keeper will then have 28 days from
the date of that Notice of Rejection to either pay the penalty or to appeal to the
independent Adjudicator at London Tribunals.
How to pay
• Before making a payment, please ensure you have available the Penalty
Charge Notice Number, vehicle registration number, NTO PIN number
(where necessary) and credit/debit card details to proceed. Payments can be
accepted, safely & securely.
• Online at https://suttonices.parkinguk.org/parking/
• By Automated Telephone (TouchTone) on 03300 884674
Yours sincerely
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stamfordman
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:15
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If it were me I'd let it go to the formal stage and to adjudication. However you are risking another £55.

Are you the registered keeper and is your address on the V5C correct.

Plenty of time to write a decent appeal - do not send anything without drafting it here first.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 12:28
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 13:15) *
If it were me I'd let it go to the formal stage and to adjudication. However you are risking another £55.

Are you the registered keeper and is your address on the V5C correct.

Plenty of time to write a decent appeal - do not send anything without drafting it here first.


+ 1 needs far more detail at formal stage


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Parking Idiot
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 14:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 13:15) *
If it were me I'd let it go to the formal stage and to adjudication. However you are risking another £55.

Are you the registered keeper and is your address on the V5C correct.

Plenty of time to write a decent appeal - do not send anything without drafting it here first.


Yes I am the registered keeper and the address is correct.

I think that is what I will do. Will draft an appeal and post it here soon.
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 18:49
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Please upload their rejection, redacting just your name / address / number plate. We don't want a transcript, we need to see the actual letter. However on the face of it they have made a fatal mistake: they quote section 14 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, which was repealed by schedule 12 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/12) (this was in turn brought into force by regulation 3(2)(h)(vii) of The Traffic Management Act 2004 (Commencement No. 5 and Transitional Provisions) (England) Order 2007).

Quoting legislation that is both out of date, and substantially different to the legislation that is actually in force, should be fatal to their enforcement efforts.


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Parking Idiot
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 10:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 19:49) *
Please upload their rejection, redacting just your name / address / number plate. We don't want a transcript, we need to see the actual letter. However on the face of it they have made a fatal mistake: they quote section 14 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, which was repealed by schedule 12 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/12) (this was in turn brought into force by regulation 3(2)(h)(vii) of The Traffic Management Act 2004 (Commencement No. 5 and Transitional Provisions) (England) Order 2007).

Quoting legislation that is both out of date, and substantially different to the legislation that is actually in force, should be fatal to their enforcement efforts.


Here it is.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 11:35
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There are a lot of questions they will struggle to answer in that


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cp8759
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 11:53
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Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. They quote legislation that hasn't been in force for 10 years, so they cannot have possibly considered your representations. They also state they are "unable to cancel", which is an unlawful fetter of their discretion.

Tell us a bit more about the contravention: How long were you parked there for? What were you doing while you were parked?


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Wretched Rectum
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 22:19
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:53) *
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. They quote legislation that hasn't been in force for 10 years, so they cannot have possibly considered your representations. They also state they are "unable to cancel", which is an unlawful fetter of their discretion.

Tell us a bit more about the contravention: How long were you parked there for? What were you doing while you were parked?


You will find that SI 2008/757 para 4(2)(d) prevented section 14 LLAA 2003 from being repealed. You will find that section 14 LLAA 2003 is not listed under sched 7 TMA 2004.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 22:44
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Brian Haytred
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 22:57
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QUOTE (Wretched Rectum @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:19) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:53) *
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. They quote legislation that hasn't been in force for 10 years, so they cannot have possibly considered your representations. They also state they are "unable to cancel", which is an unlawful fetter of their discretion.

Tell us a bit more about the contravention: How long were you parked there for? What were you doing while you were parked?


You will find that SI 2008/757 para 4(2)(d) prevented section 14 LLAA 2003 from being repealed. You will find that section 14 LLAA 2003 is not listed under sched 7 TMA 2004.



This is correct, however, I don't understand how the LLA 2003 creates an 'offence' or DK parking.

Representations against penalty charge notice
1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.

is there an amended version of the LLA about?
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Wretched Rectum
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:08
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QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:57) *
This is correct, however, I don't understand how the LLA 2003 creates an 'offence' or DK parking.

Representations against penalty charge notice
1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.

is there an amended version of the LLA about?


It's still an offence under the LLAA 2003 but contravening the LLLA 2003 is not an offence under the TMA 2004 Sched 7. A TMA 2004 PCN for a DK offence is down to section 86 TMA 2004.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:08
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Brian Haytred
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:12
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Yes, s7, but what part of the LLA 2003 (or TMA) allows the council to issue a PCN?
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