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Haringey PCN - 47: Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
icnk
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:03
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Hello,

In December, I received a PCN for stopping to allow a passenger out near this bus stop: https://goo.gl/maps/gmTNHrbU9pw

Along with the attached photo, there's a video showing I had stopped for a good 30-40 seconds.

I had stopped at the lamp post which is near the start of the road markings, though the overall length of the bus stop markings are around 120 feet/39 meters. (You can get a sense of the distance here: https://goo.gl/maps/mJWAAuosYiv )

If you jump forward to the bus stop itself, you’ll see the small yellow sign which notes that there is “No stopping, 7am-midnight”.

After looking into the Traffic Signs Manual from the TSO, I made an appeal on the grounds that the restrictions and sign were not visible from where I had stopped.

(My appeal asked them to consider the recommendation for the sign to face oncoming traffic, and be placed close to the beginning of the bay...)

"9.19 Schedule 19, paragraph 2 and direction 25(1) both require that the road marking is used in conjunction with an upright sign to either diagram 974 or 975..."

"9.23 As the broad continuous yellow line that forms part of the bus stop clearway marking is intended to indicate that stopping is prohibited, it is not essential that the signs to diagram 974 and 975 face oncoming traffic, particularly where the prohibition is continuous. However, where the sign shows a time period it will be helpful to drivers if the sign does face oncoming traffic. The sign should normally be located near the centre of the bay or mounted on the post that supports the bus stop sign to diagram 970, 973.2 or 973.3. Where the bus stop marking has been extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay."

Unfortunately, I’ve only just heard that my appeal has been put on hold because it was a rental car – and it seems the council must receive a direct appeal, or written authority from the rental company before they can consider my appeal.

They’ve given more time for me to arrange this, but I’m not sure whether to submit the appeal again.

In the meantime, I was just hoping to get some outside feedback; should I pay up, submit the same appeal, or would I have any other grounds on which to make an appeal?

This post has been edited by icnk: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:05
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post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:03
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:27
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If the council are being generous and allowing time to get permission from the Rental Company, get it, today, by email and email it onto council.
Have you got the council position on this in writing ??

I do not know why Rental companies do this, they can simply turn around the PCN on the ground of a hire vehicle and name the renter, you then get a fresh PCN in your name and everything is hunky dory.

At the moment, you have challenged without authority to do so.
Council can ignore and rental company will get a Charge Certificate, which they will no doubt pass onto you or pay and charge you for.
No chance of challenging then.
It is no good sending another challenge that will be out of time and still not authorised by the rental company.

Post up the letter you have from the council, in full, only blank personal information.
Let us see what they have said.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:59
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Unusual to see anything but an 'at all times' on a London bus stop. Not sure it makes any difference though unless you got out to consult the sign.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:22
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:59) *
Unusual to see anything but an 'at all times' on a London bus stop. Not sure it makes any difference though unless you got out to consult the sign.


It doesn't matter at the moment even if the little yellow sign is missing and the broad yellow line is pink.


We are past deadline for a challenge, into the time when a Charge Certificate can be served and seem to be living on the good grace of a council not known for it.
We must see the letter to have any clue what is best, all we know at moment is that it is a c0ck up.
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icnk
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:33
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Hello,

Thanks for your replies - I've attached the letter I have received.

The Officer has placed the case on hold for 14 days, to allow further correspondence or for the PCN to be paid.

This post has been edited by icnk: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:33
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:02
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TBH if they allow the OP to pay at the discount I would settle now. Bang to rights on the contravention.

I'll have to be careful I sometimes drop the grand kids off on that stretch.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:04
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I think pigs have taken to flight.
If I had not read that letter I would not have believed it but cannot fault Haringey in their actions with this.

Today is Day 10 so make your mind up quick.

Options.

Pay the discount.... I put this first as I cannot see any mileage or potential win on what you have told us and there is limited time to take alternative action.

Contact the Hire Company and get them to challenge on Hire Company Ground naming you as driver.
If you intend to fight on, this is best option. You will get your own PCN and discount will once again be available while we dig into it.
They must get this into Haringey by Thursday 21st or Haringey will be able to serve a Charge Certificate, it is only that letter and the timing within stopping that now.
I am making the assumption that they can claim the ground, there are rules around this which may not apply.
Was it a simple rental or more of a lease, ie minicab driver???

Contact the Hire company, supply a copy of your reps with a request that they forward them or alternatively that they send you authority to challenge which you can pass onto Haringey.
Timing, deadlines still apply
No guarantee they will re offer discount if/when they reject.
No guarantee the hire company will play ball as they are still the ones liable in law and will not want to be caught holding the dirty end of the stick.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:14
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I would pay the discount and just get rid of it. Much easier in this situation and indeed it's good of council to offer it.
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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 21:44
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At this late stage, I feel I must agree with Stamford - pay at the discount. The danger is that the Hire Co. may pay it themselves and charge the penalty plus an 'Admin Charge' (usually £35) to your Credit Card.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 22:10
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https://www.drive-now.com/gb/en/london

if this is correct hire co its not worth messing and likely they cannot transfer liability. Pay the discount


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icnk
post Mon, 18 Feb 2019 - 23:38
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Hi, thanks again for the replies. I can confirm it was a brief rental with Drive now and they had offered to help with a transfer of liability.

However, since it's taken so long to get to this stage, and after hearing your thoughts on the contravention, I'm unlikely to pursue it further.


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