BUS LANE penalty notice from (surprise) Cardiff council after 3 years! Options

[TouringMuso01]

I just received today a charge notice apparently from Cardiff Council threatening all sorts of action from full penalty payments of hundreds of pounds to seizing assets etc.

It states that I did not respond to an initial penalty notice - a notice that I never received and have no knowledge of. More interestingly the apparent contravention is dated as 2016 nearly 3 years ago!

At first I thought this was a scam - but seems like a legit letter.

The letter I received had a last chance offer of over £125 on it however this 14 day period has now expired as the letter was dated start of September and I received it yesterday.

I have no knowledge of the incident it refers to and I haven't been to Cardiff for at least 3 years


What should I do with this and how should I proceed in replying? The threatening nature of this is concerning me and as I never received anything relating to this previously I don't know how best to deal with this. Im now worried how they will react to this apparent 'non compliance'

Can this be legit or applicable nearly 3 years after the fact....??

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[PASTMYBEST]

Ok, good.

TEC ?

Right, according to TEC - the PCN is NOT yet registered with court and not on their records - still with the council.

Thought that would be the case but better to check. They cannot do anything without first serving a charge certificate, that then is to all intents and purposes irrelevant . The document you are waiting for is called an order for recovery this allows you to make a witness statement to the effect that the PCN was not recieved. The council will then have to re serve if the want to, you then get the option to pay of appeal.

but keep an eye out for these documents, if they order for recovery goes missing things get messy. Best to call TEC every 10 days or so and check progress.


But lets tweak their noses a bit and set out the groundwork for an appeal at the same time.

More late when I've checked a few things

[PASTMYBEST]

Fill in the missing detail and send them this.

Cardiff council traffic enforcement office

address details


DATE


dear sirs

I refer you to your letter of 12th of September of 2018 with regard to a penalty charge notice numbered xxxxxxxxx.

I cannot express my alarm and distress at receiving this, what only can be described as a threatening letter. I have never received a PCN for an alleged bus lane contravention in Cardiff in the month of April of 2016, some two years and seven months ago.

So distressed was I that I sought advice, and find with the aid of advisors and research that the letter is in fact a litany of half truths and omissions and is of questionable legality.

First the letter demands the penalty with a surcharge of 50% making a total of £105. This sum cannot be demanded until a charge certificate has been served.

Next this atrocious letter goes on to describe the actions the council will take, the charges that will accrue if these actions are taken, and the various methods of collecting this as a debt. It goes on to say that the only way I can avoid these actions is to make payment of this prematurely inflated amount. Else the matter will be placed in the hands of enforcement agents. This not being a true reflection of the statutory process, omitting to inform of my statutory right to make a witness statement that would render the PCN revoked, disingenuous at best, Sent under the auspices of the regulations at worst possibly malfeasance

The council are attempting to coerce a payment outwith the statutory process, whilst stating I have no access to that process.

Let us move to the legal truth.

The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013 and the The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013 set out the statutory process for the issue and enforcement of a PCN.

The only action the authority may undertake in pursuit of a penalty is set out in these regulations. If the PCN is not paid or representations are not made within the specified time a charge certificate may be issued. No other or further action can be taken. After the allotted time if this charge certificate is not paid then the council may apply to the T.E.C to register this charge as a debt. At this stage the council must then serve an order for recovery. This allows that a witness statement may be made to the T.E.C. Within 21 days of the service of the order for recovery

In this case I am entitled and would make this witness statement to the effect that I did not receive the PCN. The council will be aware that this witness statement WILL require T.E.C to order the charge certificate the order for recovery and the PCN to be revoked. The council may then serve a new PCN.
I will then have the opportunity to appeal. Whilst I have no recollection or the alleged contravention so cannot comment on that. I am sure the council will have the requisite evidence that can be put before an adjudicator, and made available to my self.

What I will most assuredly appeal on is the ground of procedural impropriety. The council will be aware of the definition of this. The letter that has garnered this response is assuredly a PI appeals reg 8(5)(a) the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than—
in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
at the time or during the period when
it is authorised or required by the General Provisions Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;

A step has been taken that is not in accordance with the regulations, a PI

Further Article 6 of the ECHR is breached it the failure to comply with the reasonable time guarantee incorporated in the right to a fair trail

The council now have two options:- cancel this PCN as it is now unenforceable. Or
Comply with the regulations and serve a charge certificate, then at the end of the specified time serve an order for recovery to allow the progression, as per the regulations.

give it a day for other to chip in



edited a bit to take on board Neil's input

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 21:58

[Neil B]

There's somewhere in there we might fit that there is a statutory period of time in which such a WS can be made but the letter fails to
mention so. Hence, it is not true that a warrant may (or will, they say both) 'then' be issued at the time they infer.

The jump straight to mention of bailiff fees is disgraceful.

I don't consider it a letter; rather a demand for money.

[TouringMuso01]

Wow, thank you very much guys - I certainly didn't expect a fully drafted letter. Hugely appreciated!

Just taking all that on board.

With those edits in mind would you suggest posting this as a formal letter to the PO box address supplied on the notice??

[Neil B]

Let#s just hone it by consensus first. i'm not sure where my comments fit in yet.

[PASTMYBEST]

Let#s just hone it by consensus first. i'm not sure where my comments fit in yet.

Think its there Neil, just our different styles

Next this atrocious letter goes on to describe the actions the council will take, the charges that will accrue if these actions are taken, and the various methods of collecting this as a debt. It goes on to say that the only way I can avoid these actions is to make payment of this prematurely inflated amount. Else the matter will be placed in the hands of enforcement agents. This not being a true reflection of the statutory process, omitting to inform of my statutory right to make a witness statement that would render the PCN revoked, disingenuous at best, Sent under the auspices of the regulations at worst possibly malfeasance

The council are attempting to coerce a payment outwith the statutory process, whilst stating I have no access to that process.

The only action the authority may undertake in pursuit of a penalty is set out in these regulations. If the PCN is not paid or representations are not made within the specified time a charge certificate may be issued. No other or further action can be taken. After the allotted time if this charge certificate is not paid then the council may apply to the T.E.C to register this charge as a debt. At this stage the council must then serve an order for recovery. This allows that a witness statement may be made to the T.E.C. Within 21 days of the service of the order for recovery

[Neil B]

Let#s just hone it by consensus first. i'm not sure where my comments fit in yet.

Think its there Neil, just our different styles

I agree and was thinking so but hadn't noticed your reference to 21 days.

I still think that an emphasis that a warrant cannot be issued at the time they infer by 'then' would aid impact.

[TouringMuso01]

Will type this up and send it off tomorrow!

Away with work again from Saturday so just a bit concerned about receiving/missing a reply - will keep weekly checking with TEC too in the meantime...

[PASTMYBEST]

Will type this up and send it off tomorrow!

Away with work again from Saturday so just a bit concerned about receiving/missing a reply - will keep weekly checking with TEC too in the meantime...

Any reply the make other than cancelation or a charge certificate is BS and for the other two you have time. Send the letter( e mail will do) then do no more than check with tec. come back when you hear something

[TouringMuso01]

👍🏻 will try get an email address of the website.

[TouringMuso01]

No luck with email - apparently its forbidden!

Looks like Im doing it the formal way!

[TouringMuso01]

Ok,

Sent the letter in the post to the address supplied but also copied to the generic C2C email address on the website.

Received this email reply from them today:


Dear Mr,

Thank you for contacting Connect to Cardiff.

At the time of the contravention a PCN was sent out to your address on 26/04/2016, this was not responded to so a Charge Certificate was sent out on 31/05/2016. At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.
If you have not received these letters you will need to submit the Order For Recovery Forms that will be sent to your address once the fine has been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. This should be within the next few weeks.

The reference number for your enquiry today is 511883.

Yours sincerely,

Bethan

Connect to Cardiff
City of Cardiff Council
County Hall
Atlantic Wharf
Cardiff
CF10 4UW




Needless to say, for whatever reason, I ultimately received neither of the documents referenced above...

[PASTMYBEST]

Ok,

Sent the letter in the post to the address supplied but also copied to the generic C2C email address on the website.

Received this email reply from them today:


Dear Mr,

Thank you for contacting Connect to Cardiff.

At the time of the contravention a PCN was sent out to your address on 26/04/2016, this was not responded to so a Charge Certificate was sent out on 31/05/2016. At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.
If you have not received these letters you will need to submit the Order For Recovery Forms that will be sent to your address once the fine has been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. This should be within the next few weeks.

The reference number for your enquiry today is 511883.

Yours sincerely,

Bethan

Connect to Cardiff
City of Cardiff Council
County Hall
Atlantic Wharf
Cardiff
CF10 4UW




Needless to say, for whatever reason, I ultimately received neither of the documents referenced above...

Keep hold of that. They may well have sent a PCN and CC though I doubt it and if they did the same legislation was in place,

[Neil B]

At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.

WTAF.

Yes, Welsh legislation is young and yes the full, relevant, set may not have been immediately brought in (must look)
but I struggle to believe any legislation passed would apply to pre-existing outstanding penalties.

[Incandescent]

At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.

WTAF.

Yes, Welsh legislation is young and yes the full, relevant, set may not have been immediately brought in (must look)
but I struggle to believe any legislation passed would apply to pre-existing outstanding penalties.

I think it's called "bluffing your way"

Anyway, when it gets to adjudication we'll find out.

[Neil B]

From,
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Enforcement of charge certificates
21. Where a charge certificate has been served on any person and the increased penalty charge provided for in the certificate is not paid within the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the certificate is served, the enforcement authority may, if a county court so orders, recover the increased charge as if it were payable under a county court order.

Effective March 2013.

Unless there was some legal or other block on Welsh authorities accessing TEC for PCN registration ?

I would respond by asking them what new legislation they are referring to.

[PASTMYBEST]

Got a response in mind but tomorrow

[TouringMuso01]

At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.

WTAF.

Yes, Welsh legislation is young and yes the full, relevant, set may not have been immediately brought in (must look)
but I struggle to believe any legislation passed would apply to pre-existing outstanding penalties.

Indeed, that's what I thought!

[Neil B]

At this time we did not have the relevant legislation to progress the fine further to enforcement. This legislation has now been granted so all unpaid fines are being progressed in line with this.

WTAF.

Yes, Welsh legislation is young and yes the full, relevant, set may not have been immediately brought in (must look)
but I struggle to believe any legislation passed would apply to pre-existing outstanding penalties.

Indeed, that's what I thought!

Let's see what PMB has in mind tomorrow; since his first apparently elicited such apparent ellipticals so quickly.

[Mad Mick V]

There has been no barrier to Cardiff accessing the TEC as far as I am aware. All a "customer" has to do is send a copy of their application to the Welsh Assembly for CPE then they can start issuing through the TEC.

But when did they do it and can they submit old cases? IMO the legislation gives them the power to pursue this "debt" whenever incurred regardless of when the administration of it begins.

Mick