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PCN issued while I am in car (With Video), Parked in a disabled bay for 10 mins I know it isn't right...
palief
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 01:49
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Hi guys,

I got a video evident of the PCN stick on my windscreen while I'm in the car, I thought I had a case but checked apparently it was legal.

Video:
Youtube PCN issuing

I know it was quite wrong taking up a disabled bay (No, I do not have a blue badge) however there were no bay available apart from loads of disabled bays empty...

it was literately 10 mins I pop in the corner shop and back and saw them preparing the ticket.

I don't think I have a case but just to see if there's any magical from you guys.

It's a lesson I would pay up if I have to, but with a pregnant wife and baby on way every pennies count!

Here are the video and photos:





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post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 01:49
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Albert Ross
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 02:49
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If you click report at the bottom of your post and ask a mod to move it to the council area; it may (but probably doesn't) contain defects that may be of benefit, they will see...


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palief
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 12:44
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QUOTE (Albert Ross @ Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 02:49) *
If you click report at the bottom of your post and ask a mod to move it to the council area; it may (but probably doesn't) contain defects that may be of benefit, they will see...


Thank for the advise will try
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palief
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 17:14
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Any comments are welcome
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Incandescent
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 18:38
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Its a hanging offence to park in a disabled bay without a Blue Badge (only joking !!). If it were me, I'd pay the discount and put this down as a learning opportunity in Life's Rich Pageant. It is not a getout to say that other disabled bays were empty, I'm afraid.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 18:38
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palief
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 22:02
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 18:38) *
Its a hanging offence to park in a disabled bay without a Blue Badge (only joking !!). If it were me, I'd pay the discount and put this down as a learning opportunity in Life's Rich Pageant. It is not a getout to say that other disabled bays were empty, I'm afraid.


Fair advise, I don't it wasn't right at disabled bay but there was plenty empty ones and I only needed 10 mins...

So it is perfectly legal now for them to issue tickets while driver in car? I understand it was disable bay and I don't have much case

Or any chance with the 10-minute grace period before I drove off?

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stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 22:22
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PCNs are issued to a vehicle that's in contravention and it is the owner not the driver who is liable. You could have the entire Arsenal first team in your car and still get a ticket. There is no grace period for this and CEOs can instantly issue a PCN for a parking in a disabled bay.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 22:22
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LaughingLeaf
post Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 23:43
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 22:22) *
PCNs are issued to a vehicle that's in contravention and it is the owner not the driver who is liable. You could have the entire Arsenal first team in your car and still get a ticket. There is no grace period for this and CEOs can instantly issue a PCN for a parking in a disabled bay.


Surely at least one of the Arsenal 1st team has a blue badge?

This post has been edited by LaughingLeaf: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 23:43
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palief
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 01:33
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Thanks stamfordman.

LaughingLeaf LOL
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hcandersen
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 07:16
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OP, the video shows that in conjunction with it was literately 10 mins I pop in the corner shop and back and saw them preparing the ticket, we are not getting the full picture.

The exact sequence of events pl.

For example, what does driver was in the car mean? You were gone for 10 minutes and saw them only on your return. You then did what, argue the toss and switch on a video recorder, apologise and move out of contravention immediately, sit in the car and refuse to move?
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palief
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 07:16) *
OP, the video shows that in conjunction with it was literately 10 mins I pop in the corner shop and back and saw them preparing the ticket, we are not getting the full picture.

The exact sequence of events pl.

For example, what does driver was in the car mean? You were gone for 10 minutes and saw them only on your return. You then did what, argue the toss and switch on a video recorder, apologise and move out of contravention immediately, sit in the car and refuse to move?


Thanks you so much hcandersen

Yes what happened was pretty much as you mentioned.

I was gone for 10 mins and saw them only on return, trying to find my car keys but carrying a lot of grocery. It took one minute because I can't remember where I put the car keys so I failed to access the car and drive off asap

Tried to apologise at the same time but they they were racing to print the ticket, saying they are already issuing ticket but in fact it wasn't until I got in the car and trying to drive away from contravention. They stick PCN notice on screen and take photo before I reverse the car and drive off.

Hope this helps explaining it
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Incandescent
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:41
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QUOTE (palief @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:32) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 07:16) *
OP, the video shows that in conjunction with it was literately 10 mins I pop in the corner shop and back and saw them preparing the ticket, we are not getting the full picture.

The exact sequence of events pl.

For example, what does driver was in the car mean? You were gone for 10 minutes and saw them only on your return. You then did what, argue the toss and switch on a video recorder, apologise and move out of contravention immediately, sit in the car and refuse to move?


Thanks you so much hcandersen

Yes what happened was pretty much as you mentioned.

I was gone for 10 mins and saw them only on return, trying to find my car keys but carrying a lot of grocery. It took one minute because I can't remember where I put the car keys so I failed to access the car and drive off asap

Tried to apologise at the same time but they they were racing to print the ticket, saying they are already issuing ticket but in fact it wasn't until I got in the car and trying to drive away from contravention. They stick PCN notice on screen and take photo before I reverse the car and drive off.

Hope this helps explaining it

Fine. I don't know how long you've lived in the Great Wen (a weeping wound, BTW, lol), but councils dine out very copiously on PCN income, and flood the streets with CEOs to make sure the money rolls in. In the old days, (before your time, I suspect), we had "Traffic Wardens" that reported to the police, and were allowed to exercise discretion. Those days have long gone, I'm afraid, and it is now almost impossible to bluff your way out of a ticket. Let's face it, you chanced your arm and lost, true ?
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palief
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:55
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Not sure if this helps but it was not a usual street parking bays, it is more like a leisure centre car park owned by council.

Didn't seems to have very obvious signage of time restrictions and payment instructions, not from the entrance at least



[/quote]
Fine. I don't know how long you've lived in the Great Wen (a weeping wound, BTW, lol), but councils dine out very copiously on PCN income, and flood the streets with CEOs to make sure the money rolls in. In the old days, (before your time, I suspect), we had "Traffic Wardens" that reported to the police, and were allowed to exercise discretion. Those days have long gone, I'm afraid, and it is now almost impossible to bluff your way out of a ticket. Let's face it, you chanced your arm and lost, true ?
[/quote]

I have been away from the country for 8 years I didn't remember it was that bad back in the days... But yes correct I took the risk and will accept it, just wasn't too happy they were doing their best racing to issue the ticket right in front of me couldnt find a car key...

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:41) *
QUOTE (palief @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:32) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 07:16) *
OP, the video shows that in conjunction with it was literately 10 mins I pop in the corner shop and back and saw them preparing the ticket, we are not getting the full picture.

The exact sequence of events pl.

For example, what does driver was in the car mean? You were gone for 10 minutes and saw them only on your return. You then did what, argue the toss and switch on a video recorder, apologise and move out of contravention immediately, sit in the car and refuse to move?


Thanks you so much hcandersen

Yes what happened was pretty much as you mentioned.

I was gone for 10 mins and saw them only on return, trying to find my car keys but carrying a lot of grocery. It took one minute because I can't remember where I put the car keys so I failed to access the car and drive off asap

Tried to apologise at the same time but they they were racing to print the ticket, saying they are already issuing ticket but in fact it wasn't until I got in the car and trying to drive away from contravention. They stick PCN notice on screen and take photo before I reverse the car and drive off.

Hope this helps explaining it

Fine. I don't know how long you've lived in the Great Wen (a weeping wound, BTW, lol), but councils dine out very copiously on PCN income, and flood the streets with CEOs to make sure the money rolls in. In the old days, (before your time, I suspect), we had "Traffic Wardens" that reported to the police, and were allowed to exercise discretion. Those days have long gone, I'm afraid, and it is now almost impossible to bluff your way out of a ticket. Let's face it, you chanced your arm and lost, true ?


I have been away from the country for 8 years I didn't remember it was that bad back in the days... But yes correct I took the risk and will accept it, just wasn't too happy they were doing their best racing to issue the ticket right in front of me couldnt find a car key...

This post has been edited by palief: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:54
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cp8759
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 15:23
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QUOTE (palief @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:55) *
I have been away from the country for 8 years I didn't remember it was that bad back in the days... But yes correct I took the risk and will accept it, just wasn't too happy they were doing their best racing to issue the ticket right in front of me couldnt find a car key...

Look even if you'd driven off faster than Lewis Hamilton, it would have made no difference as the council would have just sent you a PCN in the post, the last was many years ago so that if you drive off while they're writing the ticket, one can be issued by post.

Also, if it were up to me your musical tastes would be a capital offence, but I digress wink.gif

Let's go back to basics, it's for the council to show you're guilty, it's not for you to show that you're not. So let's see what the evidence is, go to https://pcnevidence.southwarkparking.co.uk/pcnonline/ download all the pictures and post them up. I can't see a tariff board on google street view and with this being an off-street PCN, there must be a terms & conditions board that says not to park in disabled bays or else the bays are not enforceable.


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palief
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 22:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 15:23) *
QUOTE (palief @ Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 19:55) *
I have been away from the country for 8 years I didn't remember it was that bad back in the days... But yes correct I took the risk and will accept it, just wasn't too happy they were doing their best racing to issue the ticket right in front of me couldnt find a car key...

Look even if you'd driven off faster than Lewis Hamilton, it would have made no difference as the council would have just sent you a PCN in the post, the last was many years ago so that if you drive off while they're writing the ticket, one can be issued by post.

Also, if it were up to me your musical tastes would be a capital offence, but I digress wink.gif

Let's go back to basics, it's for the council to show you're guilty, it's not for you to show that you're not. So let's see what the evidence is, go to https://pcnevidence.southwarkparking.co.uk/pcnonline/ download all the pictures and post them up. I can't see a tariff board on google street view and with this being an off-street PCN, there must be a terms & conditions board that says not to park in disabled bays or else the bays are not enforceable.


Thanks cp8759. lol the music wasn't of my choice it was a radio wacko.gif

Thanks for the link its a venerable info, there are only 2 photos and I can't see one from front proving the blue badge not present or PCN affixed to Vehicle, what do you think?
There arent any obvious terms & condition board or tariff board at the car park.


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cp8759
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 23:00
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Find a radio station that plays music rather than an awful noise? Anyway, draft reps:

-------------

Dear London Borough of Southwark,

The alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN was issued in an off-street car park, therefore the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 do not apply and are irrelevant. In an off-street car park, there is a duty on the authority to provide a terms and conditions board that informs road users of the effect of any relevant off-street parking places order, or else there is no way for motorists to comply with the order's requirements.

There is no terms and conditions board at all in this car park, as such any disabled bays are at best advisory and as such it cannot be a contravention to park within them. It follows that the alleged contravention could not have occurred and the PCN must be cancelled.


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palief
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 23:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 23:00) *
Find a radio station that plays music rather than an awful noise? Anyway, draft reps:

-------------

Dear London Borough of Southwark,

The alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN was issued in an off-street car park, therefore the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 do not apply and are irrelevant. In an off-street car park, there is a duty on the authority to provide a terms and conditions board that informs road users of the effect of any relevant off-street parking places order, or else there is no way for motorists to comply with the order's requirements.

There is no terms and conditions board at all in this car park, as such any disabled bays are at best advisory and as such it cannot be a contravention to park within them. It follows that the alleged contravention could not have occurred and the PCN must be cancelled.


Thanks so much for the effort and advise cp8759, do you think it worth trying to argue i about the blue badge? As their photo didnt seems to prove anything.

Otherwise I'm sure your advise will be the best bet. Big thanks cp8759!
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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 11:38
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QUOTE (palief @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 23:25) *
Thanks so much for the effort and advise cp8759, do you think it worth trying to argue i about the blue badge? As their photo didnt seems to prove anything.

You've not suggested you actually have a blue badge, the officer's notes will say there was no blue badge and you can't lie as that would turn this from a civil penalty you can probably get cancelled into a serious criminal offence. In all the circumstances, I just wouldn't mention it.


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palief
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 14:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 11:38) *
QUOTE (palief @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 23:25) *
Thanks so much for the effort and advise cp8759, do you think it worth trying to argue i about the blue badge? As their photo didnt seems to prove anything.

You've not suggested you actually have a blue badge, the officer's notes will say there was no blue badge and you can't lie as that would turn this from a civil penalty you can probably get cancelled into a serious criminal offence. In all the circumstances, I just wouldn't mention it.


Got it thanks cp8759, it make sense!
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hcandersen
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 15:40
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OP, do you live local to the location?

I ask because cp's draft presumes something rather fundamental i.e. that the restriction on use of the space relied upon the traffic sign in the photo. However, this is not the usual means of car park spaces being reserved, instead they are usually, and in this case, reserved by markings on the surface of the car park.

So, if there isn't a noticeboard within the car park which among the terms and conditions of use prohibits use of a marked space unless a BB is displayed, then you win.

Otherwise you don't.

And as photos are not necessary as regards evidence - although if included should establish the contravention - the absence of the Ts and Cs of use is not necessarily fatal to their case.

So, if you could revisit, we need the Ts and Cs of the car park.

I also doubt if it's a council car anyway: https://www.everyoneactive.com/centre/peckh...=GoogleBusiness
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