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Received a PCN for 'parking on a bus stop' while pulling over for an emergency services vehicle. Challenged and Denied.
Vaultofgrass
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:34
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First time poster, I appreciate any help you can offer!

I was in Kingston-on-Thames at midnight on the 13/11/2018 and on my way home I saw flashing blue lights in my rear view mirror. It was quite dark and I couldn't tell how many vehicles were approaching or how fast so I pulled over to the far left and gave them space to pass, however I was partially over a bus stop. After less than a minute the emergency services vehicle had still not passed and on closer inspection I could see they had stopped to deal with something else about 200-300ft behind me. Satisfied that they were not interested in me, I continued to drive home

A week later I received a PCN in the mail for £110 on the grounds of the following alleged parking contravention: 47J: Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (camera enforcement). I was given a few images and instructions on how to view the CCTV footage online, however after following the instructions it appears the data is corrupted. I was hoping the CCTV would show the flashing lights behind me but I can't even access the footage. Instead of seeing the images and footage I can just see some broken 'icons' where the pictures should be and a box with an X through it for the video. I callled up the help team and they saw it too and said they would try to fix it and attach a note to my case. (It is worth noting that even as I write this now, the footage is still unavailable.) The lady on the phone advised me to challenge it immediately even without seeing the evidence, so I challenged it immediately and explained my reasoning and thought nothing more of it.


I received a letter today refusing my challenge.

It was refused because the presence of emergency vehicles does not allow me to break the law. Normally I'd just pay it, but I genuinely believe I did nothing wrong by pulling over and I was simply trying to obey the law.

It was dark and the lights were about 200-300ft behind me, I couldn't assess the situation clearly enough to determine how many cars there were, how fast they were travelling, and whether I should pull over or not, I just wanted to get out of their way. Had they been travelling at 60mph in a pursuit I would have had less than 3.5 seconds to move out of the way.

I still cannot access any of the CCTV evidence, and unfortunately I have only heard about the latest letter over the phone from my dad as I am not home right now, however I do have the original PCN letter with me. According to my dad the letter stated "Because the police car did not attempt to pass me I had no reason to pull over" which doesn't make sense to me really.

I'd really like to challenge this again but my last attempt was obviously not good enough for them and I'm hoping you guys can offer some sound advice?

If you need more details please just ask. I have the original letter here and can offer any information from that, however I do not yet have a copy of the latest letter.

Pictures will follow shortly. Once again, the online files are inaccessible so I only have these small pictures to use.





This post has been edited by Vaultofgrass: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 12:07
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post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:34
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Vaultofgrass
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 16:10
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 14:15) *
I waited patiently for the police car to either pass me or stop me....


The NOR is then silent on the matter.

Does nobody know or is prepared to admit for how long you were stopped?


I honestly do not recall how long I was there for. I just waited what seemed to be an appropriate amount of time to determine whether or not the police needed to pass me or stop me. I was hoping to use the CCTV footage to confirm how long I was there for but as we know it is still inaccessible. I don't want to risk saying a number and then being miles off so I think officially it's safer if I just say I don't recall until CCTV is available, but off the record, I would have to guess that I was there no longer than 2-3 minutes and even that sounds a bit much.

In the initial pictures you can see that I'm half on the road and half on the bus stop which I am hoping will indicate that I was clearly not stopping there for an extended period of time, and it was merely a temporary manoeuvre. If I actually wanted to stop there for personal reasons I probably would have pulled over correctly so I was still not obstructing the lane.
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Longtime Lurker
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 17:56
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This can definitely be spun as a good thing. You will want to argue that not having the CCTV has prejudiced your defence, and this line of reasoning very nicely proves you really did need it to make your defence.

This post has been edited by Longtime Lurker: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 17:59
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hcandersen
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 19:45
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+1. The smart way to bring the factors together.
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Vaultofgrass
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 20:13
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 17:56) *
This can definitely be spun as a good thing. You will want to argue that not having the CCTV has prejudiced your defence, and this line of reasoning very nicely proves you really did need it to make your defence.


Thanks for the advice.

So any suggestions on how to word this draft? So far I just seem to be recalling the events as I remember them including the challenge, pointing out the issues with the PCN and NOR as they come up. I know I'm getting a bit ahead of myself but it helps to keep all my notes together so if there's anything you guys think my draft will benefit from please let me know.

Once again guys, thank you for all the help.

This post has been edited by Vaultofgrass: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 23:28
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Vaultofgrass
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 14:40
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Okay guys well I have got all my evidence together and I have written an appeal, or at least a draft.

I would be very grateful if anyone could go over it for me and maybe give me some pointers or correct any mistakes. I hope it's not too long (or too short).

I reference several 'Attachments' which will be included in the final appeal, the important ones are available in this thread, there are some that are not worth uploading and will be described below, however I can upload them if it is necessary.

A) Screenshot of broken video on website
B) Googlemaps distance of visible street
C) Googlemaps distance between both vehicles
D) My challenge of the PCN (Page 2)
E) Penalty Charge Notice (Page 1)
F) Notice of Rejection (Page 2)

QUOTE
Dear Sir/ Madam,

On 21/11/2018 my vehicle (MY REG) was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice (please see attachment E) for the following alleged parking contravention: 47J: Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (camera enforcement).

I am making this appeal based solely on my recollection of events. The website (https://kingston.gov.uk/parking) referred to in the PCN does not show any video or still images with which to sustain the authority's case (see attachment A - verified at multiple network sources). The PCN does not give any other information as to how to view the authority's evidence. I contacted the RBK (Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames) shortly after receiving the PCN to enquire about the missing evidence, and I was advised to challenge the PCN and mention the lack of evidence in my writing. I was also told that a 'note' verifying the the technical issue had been attached to my information. In addition to this, I was also advised that I could challenge the PCN a second time once the technical issue had been fixed, however still no evidence is available on the specified website to this date (12/12/2018).


I am appealing this PCN for multiple reasons:

A) The contravention did not occur, I stopped solely to avoid obstructing emergency vehicles.
B) Procedural impropriety, there is no mandatory wording regarding viewing the CCTV video on the PCN.
C) Illogical rejection reasoning, the Notice of Rejection remains silent on statements made by myself in the original challenge.
D) Lack of evidence, I am forced to recall the events using solely my own recollection as no video footage has been made available to myself.

Full details to follow.


As I remember at the time, I was driving home from Kingston shortly after midnight on 14/11/2018 after attending a public midnight event. While driving through Clarence Street I noticed blue flashing lights approaching in my rear view mirror which appeared to be moving at a relatively high speed. It was quite a dark night, and I could not safely determine how many vehicles were approaching, or how fast they were approaching. I was taught that under the Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 it's an offence if I don't get out of the way of an emergency vehicle, so I pulled over to the left, partially over a bus stop, and gave them space to safely pass. Due to the multiple turns on Clarence Street, the section of the road I was driving on was straight for only 321ft (See attachment B), and so by the time the emergency vehicle had come around the corner within my view, they would have been not much further than 100-300ft away from me and approaching.
Had there been multiple emergency vehicles at high speeds and/or in pursuit (50-60mph), I would have had less than 3 seconds to get out of the way safely. I believe I made the safest and most appropriate decision considering the circumstances, and I believe my decision was valid on the grounds that pulling aside for as long as is necessary to establish whether an emergency vehicle needs to pass does not constitute "waiting" or "stopping" and is instead considered a moving traffic manoeuvre.
Shortly after pulling aside and being able to safely assess my surroundings, I noticed that there was only one vehicle with flashing lights behind me, which had stopped abruplty infront of 'The Kings Tun' bar (Approximately 165ft behind me (Attachment C)). The emergency vehicle appeared to be a police car, and the officers inside it appeared to be talking out of their window to people standing outside the bar. The blue lights continued to flash but they did not appear to be approaching any longer so I came to the conclusion that I no longer needed to be pulled aside. I then safely continued to drive home with no further issues.

One week later on 21/11/2018, as previously mentioned, I received a Penalty Charge Notice from the RBK for £110.00 on the grounds the parking contravention: 47J. As stated above, I was not provided with the evidence on the website and so I enquired with somebody on the phone from the RBK who advised me to challenge and then re-challenge once the issue had been fixed, however 22 days later the evidence has still not been made available to me. The council has not allowed me to see the video evidence before I had to file my appeal, which is self evidently unfair. It has been held that any public authority has a common law duty to act fairly (see R v Secretary of State for the Home Department ex parte Doody [1994] 1 AC 531: "Where an Act of Parliament confers an administrative power there is a presumption that it will be exercised in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances").

Due to the lack of evidence I have had no way to confirm certain details of the event such as distance between the emergency vehicle and myself, time spent pulled aside or the registration plate of the emergency vehicle, so I did my best to explain the events as I recalled them at the time, assuming that my challenge would be approved. I have attached a copy of my challenge (See attachment D), please note, due to miscalculations the distance was wrongly stated in the initial challenge, and the correct distances can be accurately determined using attachments B and C. The '344ft' in the challenge should read 'approximately 164ft', meaning the emergency vehicle was certainly close enough to myself to warrant pulling aside. Unfortunately I was unable to truly challenge the PCN to the best of my ability due to a lack of evidence and an absurdly low character limit of 1500 on the provided website, limiting my challenge to only 269 words.

To my surprise I received a Formal Notice of Rejection for the Penalty Charge Notice on 03/11/2018 (Attachment F - please excuse annotations) confirming that a contravention did occur and the PCN was issued correctly, which I believe to be untrue. It was also stated that my pulling aside was "not needed as the emergency vehicle had stopped and did not pass" which I believe to be an illogical statement, as my challenge clearly states that it was only clear that the emergency vehicle had stopped after I had pulled aside, as checking the status of an emergency vehicle in my rear view mirror consistently while driving could be considered dangerous . I pulled aside while I saw an approaching emergency vehicle, not a stationary emergency vehicle.

After doing some research, and upon further investigation I discovered that I am entitled to view the CCTV footage through set statutory means, however I was not made aware of this as I believe the PCN was not issued correctly. From what I understand, it is mandatory for the PCN to contain the following information:


(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it
(a) to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or
(b) to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.
(6) Where the recipient of the penalty charge notice makes a request under paragraph (5), the enforcement authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.



This information must be included on a PCN, I understand that the exact words need not be used but the substance must be conveyed, however the original PCN (Attachment E) shows no such wording, the total references to viewing the video amounts to:

Video footage available at.....
In most cases you can...
Further information is .....
Entitlement to obtain images or view ...Video footage available from our website.
Self evidently these do not convey the meaning of the regulations stated above and as such I believe the PCN was issued incorrectly and unfairly as I was not correctly informed of my rights to view the CCTV evidence.


I make mistakes like everybody else, and I will gladly step forward and take full responsibility if I agree that I have made a mistake, but considering the circumstances I truly believe I did no wrong. There were no safer places to pull over due to the safety rail along the path and I was faced with a split second decision; pull aside or keep driving. Out of concern for my own safety and out of respect for our local authorities I determined that safely pulling aside was the smartest option, giving the emergency vehicle either the opportunity to stop me or pass me safely. Blue flashing lights generally indicate an emergency, potentially with lives at risk, and so my knee-jerk reaction was to safely move out of the way as I did not want to be responsible for the hindrance of the response to an emergency.
I hope this has provided enough information for you to make your decision, I am happy to provide further details to the best of my knowledge if it is required. I look forward to receiving a response to this appeal.

Thank you for your time.

Yours faithfully


I hope you don't mind if I copied some of the comments you posted and used them as they are worded far better than I would have worded it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all the help everyone.
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cp8759
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:00
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Drop "I was taught that under", "knee-jerk" and "I hope this has provided enough information for you to make your decision, I am happy to provide further details to the best of my knowledge if it is required. I look forward to receiving a response to this appeal.".

It would be helpful if we could see your attachments.


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Longtime Lurker
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:33
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I'd change

"C) Illogical rejection reasoning, the Notice of Rejection remains silent... "

to

C) Failure to carry out the statutory duty to consider representations, the Notice of Rejection remains silent.... "
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Vaultofgrass
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 16:13
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Amazing thanks for all the great advice everyone!
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 16:54
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I keep looking at this and see a two lane carriage way that is empty. In that circumstance is pulling into the bus stop likely to be found reasonable ?


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hcandersen
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 17:06
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That's because we've had days to pore over the evidence in the comfort of our own homes and not faced with making the call on the ground.

Blue lights, indeterminate speed would for most drivers mean pull to the side of the road and certainly not stop or even excessively slow on the main carriageway because for all you know there might be other vehicles in your lane ready to ram you up the a**e.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 17:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 17:06) *
That's because we've had days to pore over the evidence in the comfort of our own homes and not faced with making the call on the ground.

Blue lights, indeterminate speed would for most drivers mean pull to the side of the road and certainly not stop or even excessively slow on the main carriageway because for all you know there might be other vehicles in your lane ready to ram you up the a**e.



That's fair enough, and there seems to be enough technical arguments but it needs considering. The adjudicator will see the video, it would help if we could


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hcandersen
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 17:31
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Wouldn't it just biggrin.gif
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Vaultofgrass
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:18
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 17:06) *
That's because we've had days to pore over the evidence in the comfort of our own homes and not faced with making the call on the ground.

Blue lights, indeterminate speed would for most drivers mean pull to the side of the road and certainly not stop or even excessively slow on the main carriageway because for all you know there might be other vehicles in your lane ready to ram you up the a**e.



Yeah my dad pointed this out immediately, and in hindsight, yeah I probably could have just slowed in my lane, but as hcandersen said, it was a split second decision with no way to assess the number of vehicles or their speed and so pulling aside seemed safest at the time.

However you make a valid point and perhaps I will include some additional information in the appeal to clarify my reasoning for it.

Unfortunately as stated before, the video is still unavailable, I checked yesterday again just in case.
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Vaultofgrass
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 17:27
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Okay guys got an update for you, I've hit a slight bump in the road.

I have finalised my draft and I'm happy with it. I have prepared a folder of nice evidence that's all cleaned up and labelled correctly. I went to submit the appeal online and after uploading the evidence and proceeding to the actual writing part, I pasted my appeal and noticed that well over 50% has been cut. It turns out there's a character limit of 4000 which is not even nearly enough for me to truly state my case.

I was thinking I could simply upload the actual appeal as a piece of "evidence" and then in the dialogue box simply mention that the actual appeal is in the form of an attachment. Would that work do you think guys?

If not then I guess I am gonna have to do this the old fashioned way and post it. I still have over 15 days I believe so that's still a viable option.
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Incandescent
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 20:53
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QUOTE (Vaultofgrass @ Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 17:27) *
Okay guys got an update for you, I've hit a slight bump in the road.

I have finalised my draft and I'm happy with it. I have prepared a folder of nice evidence that's all cleaned up and labelled correctly. I went to submit the appeal online and after uploading the evidence and proceeding to the actual writing part, I pasted my appeal and noticed that well over 50% has been cut. It turns out there's a character limit of 4000 which is not even nearly enough for me to truly state my case.

I was thinking I could simply upload the actual appeal as a piece of "evidence" and then in the dialogue box simply mention that the actual appeal is in the form of an attachment. Would that work do you think guys?

If not then I guess I am gonna have to do this the old fashioned way and post it. I still have over 15 days I believe so that's still a viable option.

If it allows files to be attached, just attach a Word file.
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 21:37
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Or even better a PDF.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 23:55
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What they said.
If by any chance the site does not allow Word or PDF files, photograph a print out (or screen shot) and attach as a JPG
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 09:01
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Or use https://pdf2png.com


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