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Holiday Inn - False claim of Free Parking advertised on Website
A175
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 13:13
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Wondering if anybody can advise on the the following, don't seem to be able to find any other references to it...

The driver got (what I've now found from this forum to be a pretty common) a £100 fine notice from Parking Eye after visiting the Holiday Inn hotel in Lancaster.

The driver met up with another there (who also has a fine) for a drink, as they have done for several years, because it's halfway between where they live, and they were returning a dog from a stay at their house while we were on holiday.

Their website clearly states "Ample free car parking onsite", but it turns out this is no longer the case. It is a fully chargeable car park, though I'm not sure if customers are meant to be able to claim back at reception or something. Obviously they didn't spot any signs there are advising of charges, as they weren't looking for them, with it always having been free previously.

I've been trying to get in touch with Holiday Inn for clarification, but wanted some advice on the false advertisement of free parking. Would this in itself be grounds for appeal?

This post has been edited by A175: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:08
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post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 13:13
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:00
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But, was a customer of the hotel, albeit only for a short period.


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:08
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The website isnt unclear at all

You are entitled to rely on the information given to you. that information states "ample free parking", "complimentary self parking" . That is utterly unambiguous. There is nothing stating "subject to conditions..." meaning it isnt subject to any.
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Dennis Basher
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:26
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Edit - comments removed. Not relevant to this case

This post has been edited by Dennis Basher: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:30
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Broadsman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:27
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QUOTE (A175 @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:20) *
Thanks for all the advice, folks.

After a sustained campaign across Twitter, Facebook and TripAdvisor, and a lot of buck passing from HI at a national level and inability to get a response at local level, I finally just received an email from the local manager, and it looks positive so far... says he will "contact parking eye on your behalf and request the cancellation of the fine".

I assume I'm not out of the woods yet, as he could come back saying PE refused to cancel?


Had this a few years ago with HI and PE. Do NOT take a request as something that the manager will do.

DEMAND he does it, don't let up on Twitter, FB and TripAdvisor until such time as you have an email confirming cancellation.

The manager shouldn't be requesting anything, he employs PE, not the other way round.
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A175
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:40
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So, the manager has emailed PE with:

Could i please request the cancellation of parking fine reference ########

Vehicle reg- ######

I can confirm that the guest has used the hotel facilities. Please do let me know if you require any additional information.


Fingers crossed, but I'm not counting my chickens yet...
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:49
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As noted above, it's a shame he 'requested' rather than 'required.' Keep that E mail safe; it's a pivotal piece of evidence.

In the expectation that PE will refuse, compile your initial appeal to them and post here for fine tuning.

Is there any way at all that you can get photos of the signs? I think they may be quite important given the statements made in the website.


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:49
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Frankly the signs can say anything
They are estopped from enforcing any additional terms as the landowner has granted free parking, with no conditions.
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A175
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:52
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:49) *
Is there any way at all that you can get photos of the signs? I think they may be quite important given the statements made in the website.


Just the ones off Street View, which are almost legible...
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:55
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GSV's not good enough, IMHO.

Let's face it, it would be worth the trip to save £200 on two tickets!

Or, you could be very cheeky and ask the manager to take some and send them!!!! That would be fun!!! smile.gif


This post has been edited by cabbyman: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:58


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A175
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:01
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:49) *
In the expectation that PE will refuse, compile your initial appeal to them and post here for fine tuning.


Will do - I think I saw links to examples / templates somewhere on here, but can't find now...?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:02
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MSE newbies thread has example POPLA appeals. Dont blindly copy and paste, understand WHAT youre copying and why.
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A175
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:47
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:55) *
GSV's not good enough, IMHO.

Let's face it, it would be worth the trip to save £200 on two tickets!

Or, you could be very cheeky and ask the manager to take some and send them!!!! That would be fun!!! smile.gif


Now that would be fun... I've not yet broached the subject of the fine the driver's father also got with him yet... Thought it best to get one done and dusted at a time...

Annoyingly I drove past Lancaster on Saturday before I knew about the fine. No plans to head there in the next few days though.


QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:02) *
MSE newbies thread has example POPLA appeals. Dont blindly copy and paste, understand WHAT youre copying and why.


Cheers, will do!
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A175
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 08:34
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:49) *
In the expectation that PE will refuse, compile your initial appeal to them and post here for fine tuning.


Does the point I made on page 1 about the letter not complying with POFA by not explaining the charges which should have been due hold any water / is it worth including?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 08:38
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POPLA wont care.
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A175
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 08:54
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:38) *
POPLA wont care.


OK, so where does any contravention of POFA come into the picture?
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A175
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:18
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Here's my initial draft.

The bold part I have added to the template on MSE, while the italic part I have left in, though I'm not sure how relevant it is - it's true that the driver did not see them, so they can't be that prominent, but on the other hand I have little general proof as to their size or prominence...


I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

The driver of the car was a paying customer of the landowner, and as such the principal landowner has already contacted you instructing you to cancel the PCN – as per email sent to you by Stuart Hodgson, Operations Manager on 13th September 2017.

Given the principal landowner’s website makes a clear offer of “Ample Free Parking”. Promissory Estoppel they cannot make that offer then change it when a customer arrives at the site. Hence your signs are estopped from enforcing any additional terms as the landowner has granted free parking, with no conditions

Furthermore I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

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Jlc
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:21
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QUOTE (A175 @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:18) *
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA...

Haven't they accessed this already?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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A175
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:23
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:21) *
QUOTE (A175 @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:18) *
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA...

Haven't they accessed this already?


Hmm yeah, not clear on that point... it is meant to be the template for appealing a PCN from BPA members... but how do you get a PCN if they've not already obtained details from DVLA?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:08
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Because NtD exist

POPLA wil not care about one relatively minor non compliance with POFA, is what I should have said. Theyve ruled PE are compliant previously.

You need to reqord second bold para. You;ve just copied what I wrote and the wording isnt right for a first appeal.
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A175
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:12
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:08) *
Because NtD exist

POPLA wil not care about one relatively minor non compliance with POFA, is what I should have said. Theyve ruled PE are compliant previously.

You need to reqord second bold para. You;ve just copied what I wrote and the wording isnt right for a first appeal.


Yeah, re-read that and realised I'd screwed up he connection between the sentences, should have read:

The principal landowner’s website makes a clear offer of “Ample Free Parking”. Promissory Estoppel they cannot make that offer then change it when a customer arrives at the site. Hence your signs are estopped from enforcing any additional terms as the landowner has granted free parking, with no conditions.

Does that need changing still for a first appeal? More plain English, ie?:


The principal landowner’s website makes a clear offer of “Ample Free Parking”. They cannot make that offer then change it when a customer arrives at the site. Hence your signs cannot enforce any additional terms as the landowner has granted free parking, with no conditions.
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